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Evidence for God
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I've done that many times but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
His own Self -- who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4
His Revelation -- what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.
His Writings -- what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh
Exactly my point.
Unfortunately, there is none. At least according to have you shown us until now. Which is nothing, really.
If I declare myself messenger of Superman, then it is not the case that the evidence of Superman is magically available.
So, show to us how your messengers are evidence that God exists. And we will submit that to rational scrutiny.
Ciao
- viole
Indeed. This is why I don't take purported prophets - including Baha'i "Messengers" - seriously.
Joseph Smith had plenty of evidence, though.
Not enough to convince me, but AFAICT, the evidence for Joseph Smith's prophethood is on par with the evidence for Baha'u'llah being a messenger.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Who's "science" .. your son?
People can "investigate" as they please .. if G-d does not want to be detected empirically, He won't be.
"Your mind to my mind .. your thoughts to my thoughts"
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I cannot show anyone that, they have to show themselves. They can do that by looking at the evidence and submitting it to rational scrutiny.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But Joseph Smith never claimed to be a Messenger of God so he was in a different category.
Then provide something substantial enough that people aren't motivated to use such examples in comparison.
The faithful are typically quick to being offended at the comparison of their insufficiently evidenced god with other insufficiently evidenced beliefs, and end discussion. That's fine, but it is concession, even if one doesn't mean that and even if he doesn't agree. If we try the same thing in court as a defendant - "I don't care to discuss it" - we'll be convicted. Try it in a spelling bee or a sporting event - just quit because you're offended - and you just lost. And you can complain all you want that you don't recognize the judgment, but it won't matter there, either. You don't need to. It's loss either way, with or without your understanding or agreement.
I don't know, and I don't find value in guessing. What seems most likely is that our universe is a local phenomenon in a multiverse (an unconscious substance) that has always existed uncaused.
Nobody should believe them even if they offer evidence if the evidence doesn't support the claim about it.
No, your evidence adds nothing if you have to get to your conclusion by a leap of faith anyway. One fallacy (non sequitur) defeats you, just as one bacterium defeats a sterile solution an one poisonous apple defeats a safe barrel of apples. This is where you go wrong fallaciously invoking a black and white fallacy. This a black and white situation. There are no shades of gray. Either your conclusion derives directly from your evidence through a fallacy-free argument in which it is justified belief, or it doesn't, and it really doesn't matter what you point at and call evidence for your belief.
But they do have evidence - same as all messengers. They have their words, their characters, and their missions. Why don't you also believe them that they are channeling a god or gods? How about me? I have a message, a mission, and a character. That makes me a messenger of God by your criteria. Of course, you'll disagree, but won't have any justification for your double standard more than you choose to believe some but not others making that claim despite having no test for distinguishing between them.
That was in response to, "If that were true, at least some theists would be able to articulate in a rational way what that evidence is and how it implies that God exists." To my knowledge, you have never tried to explain why what you call evidence supports your belief. You just claim that it does.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Who's "science" .. your son?
People can "investigate" as they please .. if G-d does not want to be detected empirically, He won't be.
"Your mind to my mind .. your thoughts to my thoughts"
Yeah, and I still get a different positive result for God.
He didn't?
"I was called of my Heavenly Father to lay the foundation of this great work and kingdom in this dispensation, and testify of His revealed will to scattered Israel."
- Joseph Smith
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I was not aware of that since I don't know a lot about him or his claims....
Did he claim to be the return of Christ? I don't think so.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
It's a Baha'i thing, and maybe with a lot of this particular Baha'i adding their interpretations into it. She, and other Baha'is, take whatever they want out of the Bible and the NT and make it not literal but symbolic, then with other things she quotes the Bible as if it is literal.
Now I don't care so much that the Baha'is don't take some things in the Bible and NT literal, but it's who they claim are manifestations/messengers from the Bible that bothers me. In the Bible, Adam is not a manifestation but a guy who screwed up and disobeyed God. And here if Baha'is want to call that story symbolic, I'm okay with that. But then why and how do they make him a manifestation?
Then there is Noah and Abraham. I don't see any reason in the Bible stories about them to make them manifestations either. Three people from Genesis? All manifestations? Then, Baha'is aren't finished with Judaism yet, they add Moses. Call him a prophet but a manifestation is a level much higher than that. They are supposedly "perfect" reflections of God. Moses was not perfect and I don't think that Judaism or Christianity make him to be this special creation of God, a manifestation.
It all Baha'i beliefs. I just don't think it that everything they believe is true.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Well, that's where you and I differ..
I was prepared to take an educated "guess" .. and my experiences in life as a result,
have only strengthened my belief that G-d exists.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
God parted the seas.. Destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah... Sent fire from heaven and consumed Elijahs sacrifice and later, carried Elijah off into the sky in a fiery chariot.
Then with Jesus, The virgin birth and a wandering star. God speaking from heaven. Jesus walking on water and raising the dead and healing the sick. Dead saints coming out of their graves in Jerusalem. Jesus coming back to life and ascending into the clouds. All these things were witnessed and attested to and then written down in the Bible and NT, so that people could read about these things and know that God is real.
But... even Baha'is give reasons to doubt that any of these things really happened. But their stuff? Now that stuff is true.
I get the sense that you don't want to address my point directly, so if you saying that Joseph Smith didn't claim to be the return of Christ somehow - for reasons that escape me - makes you feel like you don't need to deal with the issue I raised, you go right ahead.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And we know some Gods of some people were invented. Even with some religions that Baha'is believe are true. The Christian trinity? Baha'is say an invention. The many Gods and Goddesses of Hinduism? Baha'is say "no". They are not real. The Baha'is God that can't be seen and can't be proven except for what the Baha'i prophet tells us about him? Now that God is real.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Which Baha'is aren't? There's got to be some cognitive dissonance happening even wit the most assured believer.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I knew some Baha'is that claimed to have seen visions of Abdul Baha'. That's not exactly seeing God, but it's a start. Now only if God can figure out how Abdul Baha', a spirit, was able to do it. But, since God is infinitely bigger than Abdul Baha', maybe it's not so easy. If God could only find a way to show just a little bit of himself?