Evidence for God

[YoursTrue]

Good for you and your relative.

Religious prophetic utterances are so vague that they can be made to mean just about anything. Everything measured wrt the much edited 4th Century book.

I do not know of any other history book that has been so fastidiously copied throughout the centuries as has the Bible, starting with the writings of Moses.

 

[YoursTrue]

Good for you and your relative.

Religious prophetic utterances are so vague that they can be made to mean just about anything. Everything measured wrt the much edited 4th Century book.

One of the first prophetic utterances in the writings of Moses was not understood until the passage of time for the Israelites.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án!"
God Passes By, pp. 137-138

I would term that as 'verbal diarrhea'. In civilized language it is known as 'Ranting'. I do not think one who does that will be talking sense.
We encounter that in forums also. The normal reaction is that the reader will skip the post except for a sentence or two.
Now, did he ascribe what he said to his God or to himself? Could what he said not have been said in fewer words?
"The total number of verses in the Quran is 6,235 excluding Bismillah and 6348 including Bismillah." - Wikipedia

 

[F1fan]

I do not know of any other history book that has been so fastidiously copied throughout the centuries as has the Bible, starting with the writings of Moses.

And the results of scholars is that it is not as divine as believers think.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do not know of any other history book that has been so fastidiously copied throughout the centuries as has the Bible, starting with the writings of Moses.

And what is the historical proof of that? Moses broke the stone on which God, the Migthy, had given his instructions. The Isralites did not even preserve the pieces like the Muslims did for al-Aswad.

The fragmented Black Stone as it appeared in the 1850s, front and side illustrations

 

[YoursTrue]

And the results of scholars is that it is not as divine as believers think.

I'm just going to mention this again -- I realize that there are portions of the Bible that are open to question. But the Bible itself was not completed until approximately the first century C.E. and said to have begun more than a thousand years before that. I realize many do not believe it, but the history of the scribes sheds light on the fact that great care was taken to transcribe the writings accurately. The Jews accept the books commonly said to be in the Old Testament, written before Jesus was on the earth. They had leaders that would make sure the scrolls were transcribed properly and accurately. There is simply no other record of a group of people on this earth that has maintained such a detailed history over the centuries as did the Jews. And then in the first century, completed by those following Jesus.

 

[YoursTrue]

And what is the historical proof of that? Moses broke the stone on which God, the Migthy, had given his instructions. The Isralites did not even preserve the pieces like the Muslims did for al-Aswad.

The fragmented Black Stone as it appeared in the 1850s, front and side illustrationsT

There have been some copies that have managed to remain from more recent centuries, I can do some research into the portions and where they are, but it wouldn't be rational anyway to think that the history recorded (such as the reading of the scrolls during the time of the kings and also Jesus) were not accurate. Yes, Moses threw the tablets down but continued writing the history after that. It's a fascinating account, including the preserving of the writings in the ark. Thanks for bringing that out, I'll do more reading about it in the Bible and otherwise. It's fascinating. But again, it wouldn't make sense for the Jews to keep such fastidious records throughout the centuries, also using a group called the Masoretes who were exact copyists if it were not true. That's how I see it now.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"There is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed: some scholars argue that it was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty (c. 140 BCE to 37 BCE), while others argue it was not fixed until the second century CE or even later." - https://en.wikipedia.org9/wiki/Hebrew_Bible#Development_and_codification90

The inter-relationship between various significant ancient manuscripts of the Old Testament (some identified by their siglum). Mt being the Masoretic text. The lowermost text "(lost)" would be the Urtext.

 

[YoursTrue]

"There is no scholarly consensus as to when the Hebrew Bible canon was fixed: some scholars argue that it was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty (c. 140 BCE to 37 BCE), while others argue it was not fixed until the second century CE or even later." - https://en.wikipedia.org9/wiki/Hebrew_Bible#Development_and_codification90

View attachment 74595
The inter-relationship between various significant ancient manuscripts of the Old Testament (some identified by their siglum). Mt being the Masoretic text. The lowermost text "(lost)" would be the Urtext.

Right now I can't say, but throughout the history in the Bible canon, it is clear that there was a succession of kings and a separation of the kingdoms, one -- the 10 tribe kingdom in the north (Samaria) and another, the 2-tribe kingdom in the south (Judah). At first they were together but after Solomon's death there was a split.

 

[F1fan]

I'm just going to mention this again -- I realize that there are portions of the Bible that are open to question.

Actually, all of it is open to questions, especially the parts that mentions supernatural things.

But the Bible itself was not completed until approximately the first century C.E. and said to have begun more than a thousand years before that.

Well you're not including the edits and additions that happened before the printing press, and the 4th century councils that whittled the bible from ove 200 boks down to either 66 or 72, depending on the type of Christianity. Lots of changes to Gods word there.

I realize many do not believe it, but the history of the scribes sheds light on the fact that great care was taken to transcribe the writings accurately.

That's what they believed, I'm sure. Too bad it doesn;t matter because the braod and diverse interpretations suggest the Bible is not clear as any kind of truth.

The Jews accept the books commonly said to be in the Old Testament, written before Jesus was on the earth. They had leaders that would make sure the scrolls were transcribed properly and accurately.

There are no originals of the Old Testament, but notice Jews don't interpret the OT the same way Christians do. It's the Jew's text, so I siggest their interpretation has authority over any Christian.

There is simply no other record of a group of people on this earth that has maintained such a detailed history over the centuries as did the Jews. And then in the first century, completed by those following Jesus.

Well, the Jews were a small community, and they evolved from the Caananites. Much of the Jewish lore came from other cultures of the Middle East. It's all well established history.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Also, during His earthly mission He fulfilled Bible prophecies, so that is more evidence to me.

No Christ claimant has ever fulfilled peace on earth.

I really did not mean supernatural, I meant superhuman. What I consider superhuman were His abilities, as exemplified in this passage:

"So prolific was this period /... /

Not so special compared to the most prolific writers. Most of them wrote more than one can read in a lifetime.

"Bahá’u’lláh authored thousands of letters, tablets, and books that, if compiled, would constitute more than 100 volumes." (bahai.org)

Compare this for example with a scholar of Judaism Jacob Neusner who wrote 950+ books!

https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Most-Explosively-Prolific-Writers-of-All-Time

Do you have anything more convincing?

Do you know what is in Baha'u'llah's ocean of words, what He was trying to convey? It is the many things that Jesus said people could not bear back in the days of Jesus.

You know that Christian interpretation of the promise of Spirit is different. IMO it's more plausible.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The Jews accept the books commonly said to be in the Old Testament, written before Jesus was on the earth. They had leaders that would make sure the scrolls were transcribed properly and accurately.

Archeology shows otherwise...

 

[Trailblazer]

No Christ claimant has ever fulfilled peace on earth.

The Bible says there will be peace, but it doesn't say when, and it does not say it will be fulfilled by the Christ claimant during His lifetime.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Please note that the prophecy does not say 'when' peace will be established. It says that it will increase which means it will unfold over time. Where it says there shall be no end to the peace means that the world will become more and more peaceful over time. The same is true for the government. It says that there shall be 'no end' to the government which means it will begin and be established gradually and continue to develop over time. The government will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Baha’u’llah set up a 'system of government' and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. What we now refer to as Local Spiritual assemblies (LSAs) and will eventually evolve into what will be called Houses of Justice. This certainly qualifies as an 'increase' in government.

Not so special compared to the most prolific writers. Most of them wrote more than one can read in a lifetime.

"Bahá’u’lláh authored thousands of letters, tablets, and books that, if compiled, would constitute more than 100 volumes." (bahai.org)

Compare this for example with a scholar of Judaism Jacob Neusner who wrote 900+ books!

https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Most-Explosively-Prolific-Writers-of-All-Time

The quote from God Passes By was not so much referring to how much He wrote, but rather how rapidly He wrote it.

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án!”
God Passes By, pp. 137-138

Do you have anything more convincing?

I'll have to think on that and get back to you.

You know that Christian interpretation of the promise of Spirit is different. IMO it's more plausible.

I know the Christian interpretation about the Spirit of truth very well and it makes absolutely no sense at all. I can explain that to you on another day if you want. I have it all saved in various Word documents since I have been over it with Christians so many times.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The Bible says there will be peace, but it doesn't say when, and it does not say it will be fulfilled by the Christ claimant during His lifetime.

After Baha’u’llah died peace didn't increase. Right the opposite. There were ww1 and ww2. And today things aren't looking good either.

The Bible says that the Christ will reign the world and this is how peaceful it will be in that time:

He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide disputes for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Isa 2:4)

6And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion [a]and the fattened steer will be together;
And a little boy will lead them.
7Also the cow and the bear will graze,
Their young will lie down together,
And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
(Isa 11)

 

[CG Didymus]

Not so special compared to the most prolific writers. Most of them wrote more than one can read in a lifetime.

"Bahá’u’lláh authored thousands of letters, tablets, and books that, if compiled, would constitute more than 100 volumes." (bahai.org)

Compare this for example with a scholar of Judaism Jacob Neusner who wrote 950+ books!

https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Most-Explosively-Prolific-Writers-of-All-Time
Do you have anything more convincing?

I find it hard to read his writings... too much Middle-Eastern poetic, flowery language. Take out all that flowery stuff and I wonder how many "volumes" of writing would be left?

You know that Christian interpretation of the promise of Spirit is different. IMO it's more plausible.

Much more plausible, but something that the Baha'is can easily lay claim to. But it even says that it is the "Holy Spirit", and they still make it about their prophet.

After Baha’u’llah died peace didn't increase. Right the opposite. There were ww1 and ww2. And today things aren't looking good either.

The Bible says that the Christ will reign the world and this is how peaceful it will be in that time:

He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide disputes for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Isa 2:4)

Also, in Revelation when the Messiah comes, he destroys the evil rulers. They don't imprison him.

 

[Trailblazer]

After Baha’u’llah died peace didn't increase. Right the opposite. There were ww1 and ww2. And today things aren't looking good either.

The Bible says that the Christ will reign the world and this is how peaceful it will be in that time:

He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide disputes for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Isa 2:4)

6And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion [a]and the fattened steer will be together;
And a little boy will lead them.
7Also the cow and the bear will graze,
Their young will lie down together,
And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
(Isa 11)

Those verses can have more than one meaning so they are subject to different interpretations. You might interpret them one way and I interpret them another way. That doesn't prove anything, except that people can read and interpret verses in different ways.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

Baha’u’llah was referring to the Bible as the Word of God. What Baha’u’llah was saying in that passage is that the biblical scriptures can have many different, but the Representative of God and His appointed interpreters are the only ones who have the authority to interpret the scriptures, so they are the final authorities on the meaning and whatever meaning they assign should not be questioned.

The Representative of God is the Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah, also referred to as a Manifestation of God. Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi were Baha'u'llah's appointed interpreters.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The Representative of God is the Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah, also referred to as a Manifestation of God. Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi were Baha'u'llah's appointed interpreters.

So what do they say about Isaiah 2:4 ?

 

[Trailblazer]

So what do they say about Isaiah 2:4 ?

This morning, I decided to respond to your previous post with a more detailed answer, so I wrote that up. I had to go out but I just got back and added the finishing touches, so now I will respond to that post explaining the Baha'i interpretation.

 

[Trailblazer]

After Baha’u’llah died peace didn't increase. Right the opposite. There were ww1 and ww2. And today things aren't looking good either.

The Bible does not say when during the messianic age peace would increase.

Baha'u'llah wrote that humanity could have had the Most Great Peace, but since the kings and rulers all rejected His message, we have had to settle for the Lesser Peace.

“Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.

O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful.

Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 253-254

The Bible says that the Christ will reign the world and this is how peaceful it will be in that time:

He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide disputes for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Isa 2:4)

Some of the prophecies for the return of Christ and how they were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are depicted in the following 10 minute video.
How that prophecy was fulfilled can be seen in this video at the 6-minute mark.
Baha’is believe that the judging is being accomplished through the Universal House of Justice (UHJ).

6And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion [a]and the fattened steer will be together;
And a little boy will lead them.
7Also the cow and the bear will graze,
Their young will lie down together,
And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
(Isa 11)

What this means to a Baha’i is that in the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Clearly, Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 but Jesus promised to fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 when He returned.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The one fold and one shepherd is the promise to unite mankind, what Baha’u’llah came to do, among other things.

“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

“The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

Below is part of the commentary on Isaiah chapter 11, according to Abdu'l-Baha.

“In Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, it is said: “And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.” But “they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” These conditions did not prevail in the time of the manifestation of Christ; for until today various and antagonistic nations exist in the world: very few acknowledge the God of Israel, and the greater number are without the knowledge of God. In the same way, universal peace did not come into existence in the time of Christ—that is to say, between the antagonistic and hostile nations there was neither peace nor concord, disputes and disagreements did not cease, and reconciliation and sincerity did not appear. So, even at this day, among the Christian sects and nations themselves, enmity, hatred and the most violent hostility are met with.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 62-63

 

[viole]

I cannot show anyone that, they have to show themselves. They can do that by looking at the evidence and submitting it to rational scrutiny.

I cannot show anyone that, they have to show themselves. They can do that by looking at the evidence and submitting it to rational scrutiny.

As I said, zero evidence.

ciao

- viole