Evidence for God

[CG Didymus]

What about Joseph Smith and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Ahmadiyyas.
What evidence did any messenger give for it?

I wonder how is their "evidence" different and not as good and not as believable as the evidence from the Baha'i prophet?

 

[Trailblazer]

I get the sense that you don't want to address my point directly, so if you saying that Joseph Smith didn't claim to be the return of Christ somehow - for reasons that escape me - makes you feel like you don't need to deal with the issue I raised, you go right ahead.

No, that is not the reason I asked if Joseph Smith claimed to be the return of Christ.

I will be glad to address the point you raised. I don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet since my religion teaches that he was not a prophet.

“Joseph Smith we do not consider a Prophet, minor or otherwise. Certainly no reference he made could have foretold the Coming of this Revelation in his capacity as a Prophet.” (Letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual, 21 Feb. 1942)
https://bahai-library.com/pdf/c/collins_mormonism.pdf

Shoghi Effendi explained that Joseph Smith is a seer and not a prophet. He is not an independent prophet (a Manifestation of God who reveals a book) or even a minor prophet of God like Daniel or Ezekiel who were firm in the Covenant of God under the Manifestation of their day. Smith is only a seer. "Seer" means that he can "see" certain things that are true, but not that he is some sort of infallible guide, or even that he is part of the religion of God.

Joseph Smith was a seer, not a prophet of God, neither major nor minor prophet. (Memories of 'Abdu'l-Baha, by R. A. Brown, p. 117)

 

[Trailblazer]

Which Baha'is aren't? There's got to be some cognitive dissonance happening even wit the most assured believer.

The claim that they were 'both visibly distressed by debate' is false. Nobody except those Baha'is knows if they were distressed by debate.
I know though, because they told me what happened and how they feel about it on another forum.
The way we know things about other people if we want to know them is to ask them, rather than assume we know, arrogantly.

Which Baha'is aren't? The ones who are left posting on this forum, mainly @Trailblazer, @Truthseeker, and @InvestigateTruth

 

[F1fan]

And we know some Gods of some people were invented. Even with some religions that Baha'is believe are true. The Christian trinity? Baha'is say an invention. The many Gods and Goddesses of Hinduism? Baha'is say "no". They are not real. The Baha'is God that can't be seen and can't be proven except for what the Baha'i prophet tells us about him? Now that God is real.

In my experience as a skeptic debating religious folks there is a way to refer to one's God, or gods, or goddesses in a way that doesn't invite retort. It seems Eastern religions and pagans do a good job of being more figurative in how they refer to thier gods. The dilemma for the Abrahamics is their learned tradition of an actual God that performs actual acts (Baha'i being an exception outside of their messengers) and the various frameworks being the only valid framework. I always found it interesting how Jews, Christians, and Muslims can cooperate when their frameworks are dramatically different, and even contradictory. There has to be quite a bit of suspension of belief in order to cooperate in forums and life interactions. These religions aren't just a matter of taste and personal meaning, but they are presumed to describe an absolute reality that can't be compromised.

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't bother so much. Just pick a few things that first come to mind so we can discuss it.

The first thing that came to mind was what Baha’u’llah did to gather the followers of the Bab and unite them, after He returned from retreating to the mountains. Unfortunately, I don’t know the history of the Baha’i Faith that well, so I did not want to use that for my first example. Maybe my friend @Truthseeker can jump in and explain what Baha’u’llah did since he is very well versed in Baha’i history.

Then last night as my head was hitting the pillow I thought of what I think is a good place to start a discussion, since it is not only history, but it also shows the supernatural powers of Baha’u’llah. A quick search in God Passes By yielded what I was looking for. This is considered “Authoritative Writings” of the Baha’i Faith because it was written by Shoghi Effendi...

“The enormous expansion in the scope and volume of Bahá’u’lláh’s writings, after His return from Sulaymáníyyih, is yet another distinguishing feature of the period under review. The verses that streamed during those years from His pen, described as “a copious rain” by Himself, whether in the form of epistles, exhortations, commentaries, apologies, dissertations, prophecies, prayers, odes or specific Tablets, contributed, to a marked degree, to the reformation and progressive unfoldment of the Bábí community, to the broadening of its outlook, to the expansion of its activities and to the enlightenment of the minds of its members. So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred. A vast, and indeed the greater, proportion of these writings were, alas, lost irretrievably to posterity. No less an authority than Mírzá Áqá Ján, Bahá’u’lláh’s amanuensis, affirms, as reported by Nabíl, that by the express order of Bahá’u’lláh, hundreds of thousands of verses, mostly written by His own hand, were obliterated and cast into the river. “Finding me reluctant to execute His orders,” Mírzá Áqá Ján has related to Nabíl, “Bahá’u’lláh would reassure me saying: ‘None is to be found at this time worthy to hear these melodies.’ …Not once, or twice, but innumerable times, was I commanded to repeat this act.”A certain Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, pp. 137-138

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, that is not the reason I asked if Joseph Smith claimed to be the return of Christ.

I will be glad to address the point you raised. I don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet since my religion teaches that he was not a prophet.

“Joseph Smith we do not consider a Prophet, minor or otherwise. Certainly no reference he made could have foretold the Coming of this Revelation in his capacity as a Prophet.” (Letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual, 21 Feb. 1942)
https://bahai-library.com/pdf/c/collins_mormonism.pdf

Shoghi Effendi explained that Joseph Smith is a seer and not a prophet. He is not an independent prophet (a Manifestation of God who reveals a book) or even a minor prophet of God like Daniel or Ezekiel who were firm in the Covenant of God under the Manifestation of their day. Smith is only a seer. "Seer" means that he can "see" certain things that are true, but not that he is some sort of infallible guide, or even that he is part of the religion of God.

Joseph Smith was a seer, not a prophet of God, neither major nor minor prophet. (Memories of 'Abdu'l-Baha, by R. A. Brown, p. 117)

"I am a witness that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. . . . He was a man of God and had the revelations of Jesus Christ, and the words of Jesus Christ to the people."

- Brigham Young

Now why should I give more weight to what Shogi Effendi said - who AFAIK never even met Joseph Smith - than I give to what Brigham Young said?

 

[Jimmy]

Look around!

 

[CG Didymus]

In my experience as a skeptic debating religious folks there is a way to refer to one's God, or gods, or goddesses in a way that doesn't invite retort. It seems Eastern religions and pagans do a good job of being more figurative in how they refer to thier gods. The dilemma for the Abrahamics is their learned tradition of an actual God that performs actual acts (Baha'i being an exception outside of their messengers) and the various frameworks being the only valid framework. I always found it interesting how Jews, Christians, and Muslims can cooperate when their frameworks are dramatically different, and even contradictory. There has to be quite a bit of suspension of belief in order to cooperate in forums and life interactions. These religions aren't just a matter of taste and personal meaning, but they are presumed to describe an absolute reality that can't be compromised.

Yes, definitely Born-Again Christians and Baha'is. Their Scriptures and what they believe about them is "The Truth". And both of their religions want them to go "teach" the faith or go "witness" to the lost.

As far as cooperating... I think it's because they have a common enemy in Atheists.

 

[Aupmanyav]

His own Self -- who He was, His character
His Revelation -- what He accomplished
His Writings -- what He wrote

Frauds are very good at hiding their character. That is why frauds take place.
The so-called messengers have accomplished nothing other than starting new religions. No change in what is happening in the world.
Ron L Hubbard also wrote many books.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I wonder how is their "evidence" different and not as good and not as believable as the evidence from the Baha'i prophet?

@Trailblazer and the other Bahais should be able to answer your question. I think there were more Bahai members then what @Trailblazer mentions. Some did not specify their religion, but their posts reveal that. I do not know if they are still around.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Who's "science" .. your son?
People can "investigate" as they please .. if G-d does not want to be detected empirically, He won't be.

"Science is a systematic endeavor that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe." - Wikipedia
Unfortunately, my son is far from science and so are my grandsons. My grand-daughter is better (she will be completing her Master's in Dentistry this summer (but still not a person of science).
You are correct. God or messengers never give any evidence. They want to be accepted without evidence, which is what people of science will not do.

 

[Trailblazer]

The so-called messengers have accomplished nothing other than starting new religions. No change in what is happening in the world.

Changing the world was not the job that God gave the Messengers to do. The job that God gave them to do was complete a mission, and revealing scripture was part of that mission. The scripture was to be used my humans, who alone are responsible for changing the world.

Ron L Hubbard also wrote many books.

Nobody could change the world with what he wrote.

 

[YoursTrue]

Do you think that what you just said is rational?

Ciao

- viole

I don't know if funny is rational, but somehow I think it is. Natural? Maybe not. Rational? Possibly. Unless funny is natural.

 

[YoursTrue]

"Science is a systematic endeavor that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe." - Wikipedia
Unfortunately, my son is far from science and so are my grandsons. My grand-daughter is better (she will be completing her Master's in Dentistry this summer (but still not a person of science).
You are correct. God or messengers never give any evidence. They want to be accepted without evidence, which is what people of science will not do.

My relative is not of the same religion that I am. Yet he provided some rational reasons that the Hebrew scriptures are rational and real. We agreed on that although we do have differences. I found his logic very meaningful.

 

[YoursTrue]

"Science is a systematic endeavor that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe." - Wikipedia
Unfortunately, my son is far from science and so are my grandsons. My grand-daughter is better (she will be completing her Master's in Dentistry this summer (but still not a person of science).
You are correct. God or messengers never give any evidence. They want to be accepted without evidence, which is what people of science will not do.

As far as science goes, I take vaccines when I deem them necessary. For me. Thus I appreciate the science that goes into figuring vaccines. On the other hand, there are many statements based on figuring the past that I now have questions about and do not believe. So do I hope that taking a vaccine won't hurt me? Yes, of course. Nothing is written in stone that way. So mistakes happen. But chances are on the plus side by proof, as far as I am concerned (not everybody believes that way), in other words, that a vaccine approved by governmental health authorities are effective. Can I say that about religious prophetic utterances as if a person unrecorded in the Biblical account utters statements from God? (No.)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Changing the world was not the job that God gave the Messengers to do. The job that God gave them to do was complete a mission, and revealing scripture was part of that mission. The scripture was to be used my humans, who alone are responsible for changing the world.

Why not God does what he wants himself? What is the use of sending someone on a mission which will fail invariably. God refuses to learn.
The second option is that your God is satisfied with what is happening in the world, he does not mind the cruelties and the disasters.

Nobody could change the world with what he wrote.

Yeah, that happened with what Bahaollah wrote too, though it made him and his descendants the leaders of his pack.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My relative is not of the same religion that I am. Yet he provided some rational reasons that the Hebrew scriptures are rational and real. We agreed on that although we do have differences. I found his logic very meaningful.

Good for you and your relative.

Can I say that about religious prophetic utterances as if a person unrecorded in the Biblical account utters statements from God? (No.)

Religious prophetic utterances are so vague that they can be made to mean just about anything. Everything measured wrt the much edited 4th Century book.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The first thing that came to mind was what Baha’u’llah did to gather the followers of the Bab and unite them, after He returned from retreating to the mountains. Unfortunately, I don’t know the history of the Baha’i Faith that well, so I did not want to use that for my first example. Maybe my friend @Truthseeker can jump in and explain what Baha’u’llah did since he is very well versed in Baha’i history.

Then last night as my head was hitting the pillow I thought of what I think is a good place to start a discussion, since it is not only history, but it also shows the supernatural powers of Baha’u’llah. A quick search in God Passes By yielded what I was looking for. This is considered “Authoritative Writings” of the Baha’i Faith because it was written by Shoghi Effendi...

“The enormous expansion in the scope and volume of Bahá’u’lláh’s writings, after His return from Sulaymáníyyih, is yet another distinguishing feature of the period under review. The verses that streamed during those years from His pen, described as “a copious rain” by Himself, whether in the form of epistles, exhortations, commentaries, apologies, dissertations, prophecies, prayers, odes or specific Tablets, contributed, to a marked degree, to the reformation and progressive unfoldment of the Bábí community, to the broadening of its outlook, to the expansion of its activities and to the enlightenment of the minds of its members. So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred. A vast, and indeed the greater, proportion of these writings were, alas, lost irretrievably to posterity. No less an authority than Mírzá Áqá Ján, Bahá’u’lláh’s amanuensis, affirms, as reported by Nabíl, that by the express order of Bahá’u’lláh, hundreds of thousands of verses, mostly written by His own hand, were obliterated and cast into the river. “Finding me reluctant to execute His orders,” Mírzá Áqá Ján has related to Nabíl, “Bahá’u’lláh would reassure me saying: ‘None is to be found at this time worthy to hear these melodies.’ …Not once, or twice, but innumerable times, was I commanded to repeat this act.”A certain Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, pp. 137-138

As a former Christian I find it very strange that Baha'is (in RF) don't know any key events and sayings from the founder of your religion. How are his character and works then evidence to you?

So the first thing is the enormous scope and volume of Bahá’u’lláh’s writings. He sure had a lot of inspiration to write. I don't see anything supernatural in this quantity. It is known as human inspiration and creativity. Also IMO (my profession is teaching) I find Christian gospels much more pedagogic than this ocean of words. Sayings and parables of Jesus are very memorable. Even non-Christians know some of them...

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not God does what he wants himself? What is the use of sending someone on a mission which will fail invariably.

A. God cannot 'show up' on earth since God is spirit.
B. The missions of the Messengers did not fail.

God refuses to learn.

God does not need to learn since God is All-Knowing.

The second option is that your God is satisfied with what is happening in the world, he does not mind the cruelties and the disasters.

I cannot say what God is satisfied with or what bothers God. All I can say is that God is independent of and transcends His creatures.

 

[Trailblazer]

As a former Christian I find it very strange that Baha'is (in RF) don't know any key events and sayings from the founder of your religion.

All Baha'is have different levels of knowledge, just as all Christians do. I always believed in Baha'u'llah, but I was not an active Baha'i for most of my years as a Baha'i, so I did not study the Writings like other Baha'is such as @Truthseeker. Moreover, even after I got back into the Faith, I was not that interested in studying the Writings or in Baha'i history. I was always much more interested in talking to people about the Faith, and I picked up more and more knowledge about the Faith as I went along, since I am always looking things up on the internet.

How are his character and works then evidence to you?

For me, they show who He was, that His claims were true. Also, during His earthly mission He fulfilled Bible prophecies, so that is more evidence to me.

So the first thing is the enormous scope and volume of Bahá’u’lláh’s writings. He sure had a lot of inspiration to write. I don't see anything supernatural in this quantity. It is known as human inspiration and creativity. Also IMO (my profession is teaching) I find Christian gospels much more pedagogic than this ocean of words. Sayings and parables of Jesus are very memorable. Even non-Christians know some of them...

I really did not mean supernatural, I meant superhuman. What I consider superhuman were His abilities, as exemplified in this passage:

"So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án!"
God Passes By, pp. 137-138

Whether one likes the Christian gospels or the Writings of Baha'u'llah better is a matter of preference, and it is subjective.
The parables of Jesus were very simple and easy to understand, and they were addressed to the people living in that age, but humanity as a whole has evolved spiritually since those were written so people are capable of understanding more at a higher level.

Do you know what is in Baha'u'llah's ocean of words, what He was trying to convey? It is the many things that Jesus said people could not bear back in the days of Jesus.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.