Evidence -- making it useful

[SkepticThinker]

Science is no different than God given Messages. Science takes many truths on faith. Look back through what has been taught in schools and how much some of that has changed.

Science has to adapt to our changing capacities, faith is also subject to this change.

We can build "Truths" on our own limited capacity of mind, in both the Sciences and Faiths.

Regards Tony

No it doesn't. Science has no use for faith and neither do I.
Science is evidence-based.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No it doesn't. Science has no use for faith and neither do I.
Science is evidence-based.

The Faith you have in science, is indeed unshakeable.

My Faith is also evidence based. As the OP stated, we must make use of it. That is not possible if it is rejected prior to looking at it all.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is just stating you have Faith in science, and do not have faith in the ability of people that embrace a faith.

Yet there are many scientists that also have faith, now that is a great combination.

Regards Tony

No. Faith is your failing. It may be against the rules of accusing others of having faith when they clearly don't. Science has a well earned respect from me. That is not faith. I can show how it has directly solved problem after problem. You cannot do the same with your beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Faith you have in science, is indeed unshakeable.

My Faith is also evidence based. As the OP stated, we must make use of it. That is not possible if it is rejected prior to looking at it all.

Regards Tony

No, you do not even seem to understand the concept of evidence. You have repeatedly failed at reasonable tasks that would have enabled you to legitimately claim to have evidence.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No. Faith is your failing. It may be against the rules of accusing others of having faith when they clearly don't. Science has a well earned respect from me. That is not faith. I can show how it has directly solved problem after problem. You cannot do the same with your beliefs.

It is the correct use of the word

Faith is a "complete trust or confidence in someone or something".

Science is something we use to find material truths and facts.

Are you saying you do not have a "complete trust or confidence" in Science, it sounds like you do, but I could be wrong.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, you do not even seem to understand the concept of evidence. You have repeatedly failed at reasonable tasks that would have enabled you to legitimately claim to have evidence.

Maybe you are not considering what is valid evidence of our spiritual reality?

If we are spiritual beings, what evidence would you expect to find?

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Maybe you are not considering what is valid evidence of our spiritual reality?

If we are spiritual beings, what evidence would you expect to find?

Regards Tony

It is not my claim that we are spiritual. It is not my burden of proof.

This is the tactic of one without evidence. It is not a wise argument to use.

 

[F1fan]

Oh, that is what you are doing is it, by disbelieving in the Bible and Qur'an?

That's a funny relpy, as if you think both books are true and authoritative as a known fact. They aren't. You offer no facts or rebuttal to my statement, so you must acknowledge these concepts are little more than blind faith. And as a free being I have my own intellectual authority to reject any preposerous idea that that doesn't meet the burden of proof. As it is heaven and hell are not pratical or plausible concepts, and even many believers don't think they are true literally.

Yes. They have hope in avoiding hell, because they try to be righteous.
Any Christian who thinks they can avoid hell without being righteous lacks authentic religious knowledge.
..which is why religious education is so important.

I don't see any Christians trying to be righteous when they owned slaves. I don't see any righteousness wwhen they tortured and executed some 30,000 for witchcraft in the 17th century (that would be about 450,000 people today). I don't see any righteousness in them exterminating 6 millions Jews. I don't see any righteousness in evangelicals harming gays and trans kids, or lying about science to convince their followers that Creationism is true. I don't see any righteousness in Muslims hijacking aircraft and flying them into office buildings. None of these believers fear they are going to hell for their acts, among thers. So please don't lecture anyone about believers being righteous.

 

[F1fan]

I see God gives all of us exactly what we need and also provides the appropriate punishment when that is neglected. Thank God for that punishment, otherwise we would fall deeper into the abyss of self.

That;s odd, how would you know? You don't interact with any God, you can only trust what some people who claim to be in contact with a God says, and they're dead. So you really have no clue.

As a critical thinker I can state that if your version of God exists it clearly is ignorant about what we thinkers need to make a judgment that it exists, or that any religious claims are likely true or even plausible.

One punishment may be to leave critical thinkers to their own vain imagination. Luckily, we can ask God to rid us of those self based impulses, there are many prayers provided for this.

And your vieled threat means nothing to non-believers. That must be some cheerleading for your fellow believers, and to do so you must think some are feeling a bit unsecure. What you say here is amazing in it's projection and irony.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..please don't lecture anyone about believers being righteous.

I wasn't..
I was merely saying that Christians have hope in avoiding hell,
as they try to be righteous.
Do you not see the word "try"?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is not my claim that we are spiritual. It is not my burden of proof.

This is the tactic of one without evidence. It is not a wise argument to use.

It is your choice as to what you investigate.

To me it is on no need of further proof, no tactics employed, it is my chosen reality, based on sound logic and reason of the provided evidence.

I am, that I am, so that I can choose to be virtuous. There is no meaningful life without virtues, they all come from the motivation to connect with a higher self, not this world and its attractions.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That;s odd, how would you know? You don't interact with any God, you can only trust what some people who claim to be in contact with a God says, and they're dead. So you really have no clue.

You are not able to be a judge of me, nor a Messenger without evidence. So what evidence have you used to pass such judgements?

My own personal experience resonate with what the evidence offers. I am able to use logic and reason when examining all that God has given us, to enable us to know and Love God.

I have found it is not possible to know and Love God without first knowing one's own self!

Getting to know one's own self is a journey of pain and self examination. I found that I could be more than I was, I pray that I can find the motivation to be what we can be!

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is your choice as to what you investigate.

To me it is on no need of further proof, no tactics employed, it is my chosen reality, based on sound logic and reason of the provided evidence.

I am, that I am, so that I can choose to be virtuous. There is no meaningful life without virtues, they all come from the motivation to connect with a higher self, not this world and its attractions.

Regards Tony

No, it is not that I will not investigate. You made the claims. Your burden of proof. You actually make your religion bad by making claims about it that you can't back up and then use your failures to justify empty threats against others.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wasn't..
I was merely saying that Christians have hope in avoiding hell,
as they try to be righteous.
Do you not see the word "try"?

So do atheists. In fact they have more than "hope".

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This has nothing to do with anything. You call it "empiricism" because you can't call it faith. And it's just silly because everyone else calls it faith, and knows that's what it is. That that's the term that best describes it. Through the imagined remediation of some 'magical' entity, one is able to do for themselves what they were not otherwise have been able to do. It's as simple as that. You can whine and complain that the entity is not real, but honestly, no one cares. The possibility of God S REAL, and the results of trusting in that possibility ARE REAL. The healing is real. Lives are changed, and usually for the better.
There is nothing stopping an alcoholic from refusing to take the next drink. But millions of humans beings are going to die this year because they could not figure out how to just say no to that next drink. You presume that logic must always be effective, when clearly, with we humans, it rarely is. We NEED other methods. And for a huge number of us, faith is that more effective method.
Well, the evidence clearly shows that you are wrong.

Look at what I hilighted. What is the difference, in the case of believing in help having a beneficial effect, between God and a placebo?

Did the placebo "do" anything? Or was it the belief -- which is the product of the individual's mind? And therefore, cannot we say the same about God? What does God actually "do," versus what is the mind doing?

That is why I brought up the matter of severed limbs -- the mind can't fix that, and nor can a placebo. And therefore why I suggest that neither can God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is why I brought up the matter of severed limbs -- the mind can't fix that, and nor can a placebo. And therefore why I suggest that neither can God.

Well he could. He is just being a jerk.

Checkmate atheist!!

 

[F1fan]

You are not able to be a judge of me, nor a Messenger without evidence. So what evidence have you used to pass such judgements?

My evidence is your LACK of evidence. If this isn't good enough for you, well welcome to the club.

Let's be clear, any critic is able and allowed to make any judgments they see fit. There is no prohibition on we critics from using our minds to assess what others claim is true, and offer our judgments.

My own personal experience resonate with what the evidence offers. I am able to use logic and reason when examining all that God has given us, to enable us to know and Love God.

We know, you believe through faith on weak evidence. You don't make sound judgments via facts and reasoning, and that is your huge liability as exposed by critics.

I have found it is not possible to know and Love God without first knowing one's own self!

A self bankrupt of reason and objectivity. My question is why theists feel some compulsion to believe at all? It's clear they pick one type of religion or another, usually the one most prevalent where they live, or one that apveals to certain personality characteristics. We never see a comprehensive explanation of how a theist came to a rational conclusion that a God exists. We see fairly shallow claims based on weak evidence at best.

Getting to know one's own self is a journey of pain and self examination. I found that I could be more than I was, I pray that I can find the motivation to be what we can be!

Some who experience pain can't resolve it with a skillset that is explained as emotional intelligence. Many will seek ways to ease anxiety, pain, and trauma, and that is coping. Illusion and fantasy is one common way to soothe and distract from mental anguish, and if it goes on it can become a dependency and habit of belief. Once a person is dependent on certain habits it becomes very difficult to recognize it as a problem.

 

[PureX]

Did the placebo "do" anything? Or was it the belief -- which is the product of the individual's mind?[ And therefore, cannot we say the same about God? What does God actually "do," versus what is the mind?

The placebo provides the possibility, and through faith in that possibility, that possibility is fulfilled. It’s as plain as the nose on your face, and yet you refuse to see it.

God can provide us with a possibility in the face of the seemingly impossible. And our faith in that possibility can then do for us what we could not do, before. Faith works. But for it to work we have to be able to trust in the possibility enough to act on it. To live it. That’s what the “placebo” as you want to call it is for … to provide us with a trustable possibility when we otherwise didn’t have that.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have found it is not possible to know and Love God without first knowing one's own self!

This is, I'm sorry to say, perfectly meaningless. It does not even get all the way to the level a "deepity."

You are stringing words together so that you think they have a profound meaning it is not possible to know and Love God," but then you pair it with with another notion that is entirely unrelated "knowing one's own self!"

 

[F1fan]

The placebo provides the possibility, and through faith in that possibility, that possibility is fulfilled. It’s as plain as the nose on your face, and yet you refuse to see it.

God can provide us with a possibility in the face of the seemingly impossible. And our faith in that possibility can then do for us what we could not do, before.

Wow, the best God can do is ....maybe? That sounds like a believer who ha doubts and is leaving themselves some plausible deniability. You pray to God to save your child as it fights for life, and God doesn't come through. Maybe your kids was going to grow up to be a serial killer and God was just saving lives, you can tell yourself. God knows what he's doing, better off to let the kid die.

Faith works.

It takes a lot of work for it to work.

But for it to work we have to be able to trust in the possibility enough to act on it. To live it. That’s what the “placebo” as you want to call it is for … to provide us with a trustable possibility when we otherwise didn’t have that.

It must be exhausting to keep thinking possibilities are possible, and having no certainty even though you think a God exists and is on your side. Sounds like you understand faith isn't very reliable, but it is a good distraction from dealing with reality.