Evidence -- making it useful

[muhammad_isa]

..The faith-based thinker will seek faith solutions, and bad outcomes will follow..

Your sweeping brush, yet again..
Believers see religious education as a positive.
They feel it will influence their behaviour for the good.

If you believed in heaven and hell, where would you wish your child to end up?
A rhetorical question, obviously.

There are cases of abuse by parents, and poor outcomes of parents making poor decisions for the welfare of their children..

Of course there are .. often it is due to ignorance, and sometimes due to poverty or family relationships.
Making it all about religion is absurd.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your sweeping brush, yet again..
Believers see religious education as a positive.
They feel it will influence their behaviour for the good.

If you believed in heaven and hell, where would you wish your child to end up?
A rhetorical question, obviously.


Of course there are .. often it is due to ignorance, and sometimes due to poverty or family relationships.
Making it all about religion is absurd.

You used a"sweeping brush" argument. You got one in kind as a response. You have no grounds for complaint when you initiated the sort of arguments being used.

 

[F1fan]

This is all quite false. The subjective evidence in support of faith is that it works. It produces the results that one hoped for. And these can be explained to anyone, and verified by anyone. All they have to do is look.

I'll give you an example: let's say I am guilty of having done something horrible to someone in the past, and I am feeling very bad about it because there is nothing I can do, now, to make amends. Let's say I drove drunk and killed someone's child. And this overwhelming sense of guilt and shame are negatively effecting nearly everything I do in life. Like living in a perpetual state of punishment for what I'd done. But then someone suggests to me that through the grace of God, I can be completely forgiven. And all I have to do is have faith in God's grace and forgiveness. To allow for that possibility, and live for it. Just trust that I am forgiven, and to express that trust, to live my life accordingly.

Quite self-serving. To my mind this is an excuse so the self can avoid feeling the guilt they should feel. This is no different than a person thining "Well, mayby the kid was going to grow up and be a serial killer, so I did the world a favor by driving drunk and killing him." These sorts of excuses don't function with facts, but a fantasy the guilty mind uses to avoid true guilt and accountability.

 

[F1fan]

Your sweeping brush, yet again..

Just look at the statement pureX wrote and I responded to. His idea was to use religious illusions to get his guilty self off the hook for killing someone.

Believers see religious education as a positive.

Of course they do, self-serving.

They feel it will influence their behaviour for the good.

Of course they do, they live with a religious illsuion and since it is imagined they can imagine anything they want to get away with whatever they do. Show us any example of a theist doing some moral good that an atheist can't do.

If you believed in heaven and hell, where would you wish your child to end up?
A rhetorical question, obviously.

Why would I believe in such irrational concepts as heaven and hell? I don't because I think beyond what my society instills in most of its citizens in the way of religion.

The funny thing is no Christian ever believes they will go to hell. Hell is for everyone else. More self-service.

Of course there are .. often it is due to ignorance, and sometimes due to poverty or family relationships.
Making it all about religion is absurd.

Thanks for acknowledging that parents aren't perfect nor all mentally stable. This is the role of a state to have an interest in any child that is in danger. This is more fair in a secular nation than theocracies, which points to the lack of moral depth in theocracies. In a secular nation a religious person can't harm their child for religious reasons. Even home schooled kids have to be tested by the state to see if they are getting an education that allows them to compete as adults. The state doesn't check to see if the child is being indoctrinated in hateful religious beliefs.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This is all quite false. The subjective evidence in support of faith is that it works. It produces the results that one hoped for. And these can be explained to anyone, and verified by anyone. All they have to do is look.

No one can convince anyone of anything they don't want to be convinced of. And anyone who tries is a fool wasting his time. The evidence in support of living through faith in God is ALL AROUND YOU. In the millions of lives that faith has healed, and changed for the better. But if you don't want to see it, you won't. If you want to dismiss it as superstitious nonsense, you will. But you'll only be cheating yourself. And fooling yourself. And denying yourself access to some powerful healing and positive change. And you'd be doing so for no reason at all.

You forget that there is good, empirical evidence for the ability of our mind to help heal the body -- and itself. I have also noted the ability of the mind, through forgiveness, to free ourselves from great burdens. In my case, that forgiveness was mostly for others, but there's nothing really stopping us from forgiving ourselves.

I note, however, that unlike God, the mind is limited in what it can do -- like regrowing a limb or an eye, for example. And then I note that -- by golly -- God isn't regrowing eyes or limbs. So God is only doing for you what you can do for yourself. Why would I not assume, then, that it really is only you doing it for yourself? That's the simpler hypothesis, after all.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why would I believe is such irrational concepts as heaven and hell? I don;t because I think beyond what my society instills in most of its citizens..

Oh, that is what you are doing is it, by disbelieving in the Bible and Qur'an?

The funny thing is no Christian ever believes they will go to hell. Hell is for everyone else..

Yes. They have hope in avoiding hell, because they try to be righteous.
Any Christian who thinks they can avoid hell without being righteous lacks authentic religious knowledge.
..which is why religious education is so important.

In a secular nation a religious person can't harm their child for religious reasons.

I did not mention secular states .. what has parents wanting to teach their children about religion got to do with that?
Are you suggesting that it should be banned .. like it was in communist Russia by Stalin?

 

[PureX]

Quite self-serving. To my mind this is an excuse so the self can avoid feeling the guilt they should feel.

To what purpose ... your sense of vengeance? Should my life be destroyed just because I screwed up and destroyed someone else's?

But this has nothing to do with the actual discussion at hand, and that is that faith works, and anyone can see the evidence of it if they are willing to look.

 

[PureX]

You forget that there is good, empirical evidence for the ability of our mind to help heal the body -- and itself.

This has nothing to do with anything. You call it "empiricism" because you can't call it faith. And it's just silly because everyone else calls it faith, and knows that's what it is. That that's the term that best describes it. Through the imagined remediation of some 'magical' entity, one is able to do for themselves what they were not otherwise have been able to do. It's as simple as that. You can whine and complain that the entity is not real, but honestly, no one cares. The possibility of God S REAL, and the results of trusting in that possibility ARE REAL. The healing is real. Lives are changed, and usually for the better.

I have also noted the ability of the mind, through forgiveness, to free ourselves from great burdens. In my case, that forgiveness was mostly for others, but there's nothing really stopping us from forgiving ourselves.

There is nothing stopping an alcoholic from refusing to take the next drink. But millions of humans beings are going to die this year because they could not figure out how to just say no to that next drink. You presume that logic must always be effective, when clearly, with we humans, it rarely is. We NEED other methods. And for a huge number of us, faith is that more effective method.

I note, however, that unlike God, the mind is limited in what it can do -- like regrowing a limb or an eye, for example. And then I note that -- by golly -- God isn't regrowing eyes or limbs. So God is only doing for you what you can do for yourself.

Well, the evidence clearly shows that you are wrong.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Neither did you. In other words, his work is at least as reliable as yours. In fact even more reliable since he does not rely on logical fallacies.

Neither have you. So the question is: why are your standards so low that you are convinced with poor evidence?


I have read quite a bit on the Holocaust, and find the persecution of the Jews to be horrendous. It is evident that there is blame of most of the nations in the 30's for persecution of the Jews. Even in the USA there was hostility against them, and for what? Because there was a tradition of belief to be prejudiced against Jews. It was only after the acts of the Nazis did the rest of the world self-reflect on their attitudes and work to eliminate this prejudice.

These days we see persecution of gay and trans people, and your own religion supports this vile prejudice against others humans. Why do you go along with this prejudice? Only because you have decided Baha'u'llah is an authentic Messenger of God, and ignore that he was a bigot.


Then God is ignorant of what critical thinkers require, and apparently only want unskilled thinkers and prejudiced people to believe. Who in their right mind would adopt a religious framework that is openly hostile to gays in the 21st century?


Yet you post bad claims, and refuse to defend them.


Yes. Just as there is a strong biological drive to pass on genes to the next generation, there is a strong social and egocentric drive to pass on identity and beliefs. By indocrinating the next generation into cultural and religious beliefs the aging members of a society can feel secure that they will be taken care of as they age. Their lives, culture, meaning, and most important, their egos will go on living. The social science have reported that once people reach 40 their minds tend to crystalize, and they become very set in their beliefs and ways. Most folks will work to maintain what they believe and not feel comfort in change. We can see these trends in voting, as older people tend to vote for politicians who maintain the status quo while the young vote for progress and change. We can understand why so many older voters in Florida are attracted to their governor who is setting policies that maintain the status quo of white privilege.

That is why the evidence left for us, becomes very useful. One has the bounty of 1800's literature that so aptly describes the person a writer meets, when reading these accounts, we get to meet the people being talked about.

So any attempt at character assassinations will fail miserably, as the evidence provided confirms that Baha'u'llah was more than an ordinary man with impeccable virtues.

One such account from a person that was not a Baha'i,

"The face of Him on Whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one's very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow.… No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain."

The response on that occasion reverbarates across time

Spoiler: Part Response

Professor Browne meets Bahá’u’lláh - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh.

Ignorance of all the facts contained within the given evidence just results in people providing bigoted replies.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then God is ignorant of what critical thinkers require

I see God gives all of us exactly what we need and also provides the appropriate punishment when that is neglected. Thank God for that punishment, otherwise we would fall deeper into the abyss of self.

One punishment may be to leave critical thinkers to their own vain imagination. Luckily, we can ask God to rid us of those self based impulses, there are many prayers provided for this.

Spoiler: Vain Imaginings

"Hold Thou the hand of this seeker who hath set his face towards Thee, O my Lord, and draw him out of the depths of his vain imaginations, that the light of certainty may shine brightly above the horizon of his heart . . . Thou, in very truth, art the All-Glorious, the All-Wise." Bahá’u’lláh, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 73-74

Regards Tony

 

[SkepticThinker]

To what purpose ... your sense of vengeance? Should my life be destroyed just because I screwed up and destroyed someone else's?

Yes.

You shouldn't get to get off scot-free because some deity supposedly forgave you. What about the victim, whose life you destroyed?

But this has nothing to do with the actual discussion at hand, and that is that faith works, and anyone can see the evidence of it if they are willing to look.

Can anything be believed on faith?

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is why the evidence left for us, becomes very useful. One has the bounty of 1800's literature that so aptly describes the person a writer meets, when reading these accounts, we get to meet the people being talked about.

So any attempt at character assassinations will fail miserably, as the evidence provided confirms that Baha'u'llah was more than an ordinary man with impeccable virtues.

One such account from a person that was not a Baha'i,

"The face of Him on Whom I gazed I can never forget, though I cannot describe it. Those piercing eyes seemed to read one's very soul; power and authority sat on that ample brow.… No need to ask in whose presence I stood, as I bowed myself before one who is the object of a devotion and love which kings might envy and emperors sigh for in vain."

The response on that occasion reverbarates across time

Spoiler: Part Response

Professor Browne meets Bahá’u’lláh - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh.

Ignorance of all the facts contained within the given evidence just results in people providing bigoted replies.

Regards Tony

Sorry, but to be evidence you need to do a lot more than just claim it is. You have never even properly defined the concept.

Let's face facts. You appear to realize that a faith based belief is irrational. As a result you desperately want evidence. You have none so you have to preach dogma and hope that no one catches that.

Unfortunately for you, everyone could see that you were pushing dogma from the start.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes.

You shouldn't get to get off scot-free because some deity supposedly forgave you. What about the victim, whose life you destroyed?


Can anything be believed on faith?

A lot of things can be believed on faith. Almost always those will be wrong things.

 

[SkepticThinker]

A lot of things can be believed on faith. Almost always those will be wrong things.

Ohhhh, so it's not a pathway to believing in true things and not believing in false things?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To what purpose ... your sense of vengeance? Should my life be destroyed just because I screwed up and destroyed someone else's?

But this has nothing to do with the actual discussion at hand, and that is that faith works, and anyone can see the evidence of it if they are willing to look.

Yes.

You shouldn't get to get off scot-free because some deity supposedly forgave you. What about the victim, whose life you destroyed?

Can anything be believed on faith?

I see both the perpetrators and the victims are able to learn from the interaction.

I see the victim, who is able to forgive the perpetrators, has the most to gain. The perpetrators, who, if they subsequently repent the transgression, then have to live with the remorse. No one escapes punishment, as this creation resolves around the twin pillers reward and punishment.

The law will provide further punishment to those that will not right the transgression.

Vengeance is a cancer that transforms a victims into a perpetrators.

Regards Tony

 

[SkepticThinker]

I see both the perpetrators and the victims are able to learn from the interaction.

I see the victim, who is able to forgive the perpetrators, has the most to gain. The perpetrators, who, if they subsequently repent the transgression, then have to live with the remorse. No one escapes punishment, as this creation resolves around the twin pillers reward and punishment.

The law will provide further punishment to those that will not right the transgression.

Vengeance is a cancer that transforms a victims into a perpetrators.

Regards Tony

I haven't said a thing about vengeance. I'm talking about restitution for the victim. Which it doesn't sound like they get in the scenario I was presented with. But the perp gets forgiveness and a clean conscious and slate.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A lot of things can be believed on faith. Almost always those will be wrong things.

Ohhhh, so it's not a pathway to believing in true things and not believing in false things?

Science is no different than God given Messages. Science takes many truths on faith. Look back through what has been taught in schools and how much some of that has changed.

Science has to adapt to our changing capacities, faith is also subject to this change.

We can build "Truths" on our own limited capacity of mind, in both the Sciences and Faiths.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Science is no different than God given Messages. Science takes many truths on faith. Look back through what has been taught in schools and how much some of that has changed.

Science has to adapt to our changing capacities, faith is also subject to this change.

We can build "Truths" on our own limited capacity of mind, in both the Sciences and Faiths.

Regards Tony

Sorry, but that is a misrepresentation of science. In the sciences concepts are accepted once a body of evidence is found for them. "Truths" are never accepted on faith and even when well accepted they are still only provisionally true. If evidence is found to the contrary they are dropped.

Faith on the other hand has a very very hard time changing. It does not adapt to the times. I doubt if you could find examples that support your claim about the sciences. I have endless examples here alone of how faith has been wrong time after time.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I haven't said a thing about vengeance. I'm talking about restitution for the victim. Which it doesn't sound like they get in the scenario I was presented with. But the perp gets forgiveness and a clean conscious and slate.

I am of the opinion that there is no clear consciousness, nor slate, when one has transgressed.

The transgression are written on tablets of chrysolite

"Think not the deeds ye have committed have been blotted from My sight. By My beauty! All your doings hath My Pen graven with open characters upon tablets of chrysolite. – The Hidden Words, p. 44. (lots of mystical meaning)

(It usually refers to the green gem called peridot, it can be similar in appearance to topaz. It has conchoidal fractures, as in glass, so it can be very finely engraved, which means it doesn’t split, crack or present difficulties to the engraver who incises it. A tablet of chrysolite therefore has the ability to hold a great amount of detail permanently.)

That is one bounty of Faith, it is known there is consequences for our transgression.

Imagine we live in an age where no one owns the consequences of their actions against Gods laws. Example. Alcohol is forbidden, we face the consequences of those that do not abide by that law. Australia is now facing grave consequences in many locations because of the neglect of this law. Many Nations are also now facing the consequences.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry, but that is a misrepresentation of science. In the sciences concepts are accepted once a body of evidence is found for them. "Truths" are never accepted on faith and even when well accepted they are still only provisionally true. If evidence is found to the contrary they are dropped.

Faith on the other hand has a very very hard time changing. It does not adapt to the times. I doubt if you could find examples that support your claim about the sciences. I have endless examples here alone of how faith has been wrong time after time.

That is just stating you have Faith in science, and do not have faith in the ability of people that embrace a faith.

Yet there are many scientists that also have faith, now that is a great combination.

Regards Tony