Evidence -- making it useful

[Subduction Zone]

You are able to come up with so many diversions, now post hoc rationalizations!

Regards Tony

No, Tony. I just know how to recognize a fraud.

 

[CG Didymus]

We do have evidence .. but you don't accept it.
The evidence is the Bible & Qur'an.

Do you accept the Baha'i writings and Baha'u'llah's character as evidence for his claims of being sent by God?

 

[CG Didymus]

An example is that we are told that we need to unite the Nations and start a process of disarmament of all nations, except for what is needed for internal security.

So, nations don't need weapons to maintain their security from being invaded by other nations, yet a nation needs weapons to maintain security within its own borders?

 

[Brian2]

That is not the way God works with humanity.

It is our own choice to pursue what God has given us, as what God gives us is the required standard of Living.

An example is that we are told that we need to unite the Nations and start a process of disarmament of all nations, except for what is needed for internal security.

Now at the time many could not see the wisdom in that advice, but it is more apparent this needs to happen now.

So in the 1800's before the World wars, and the spending on armaments we now face, here are 2 examples of what was offered to the rulers of earth.

"O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions". – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 254.

Compose your differences, and reduce your armaments, that the burden of your expenditures may be lightened, and that your minds and hearts may be tranquillized. Heal the dissensions that divide you, and ye will no longer be in need of any armaments except what the protection of your cities and territories demandeth. Fear ye God, and take heed not to outstrip the bounds of moderation, and be numbered among the extravagant.

We have learned that you are increasing your outlay every year, and are laying the burden thereof on your subjects. This, verily, is more than they can bear, and is a grievous injustice. Decide justly between men, and be ye the emblems of justice amongst them. This, if ye judge fairly, is the thing that behoveth you, and beseemeth your station." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 250-251.

At the same time the Promises of what can happen if we follow this advice is also given.

This is a summary of what some of thos promises are.

"The enormous energy dissipated and wasted on war, whether economic or political, will be consecrated to such ends as will extend the range of human inventions and technical development, to the increase of the productivity of mankind, to the extermination of disease, to the extension of scientific research, to the raising of the standard of physical health, to the sharpening and refinement of the human brain, to the exploitation of the unused and unsuspected resources of the planet, to the prolongation of human life, and to the furtherance of any other agency that can stimulate the intellectual, the moral, and spiritual life of the entire human race." – Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 202

There is an enormous amount of advice available. All found in the available evidence God gives us. The Message from God.

Regards Tony

My advice to the nations is to stop fighting each other, to teat all your citizens fairly, to take care of the environment in your nations so that it is not harmed and downgraded to not allow your citizens to steal or murder or do anything else that will harm others. To educate all your citizens and to make sure everyone has enough to eat and is housed and has a good and affordable medical system and that all your people are given work and a wage that is fair and that they can live on without being in poverty. To assist other countries with aid when disaster strikes them. etc etc.

 

[YoursTrue]

[QUOTE="Subduction Zone, post: 7998794, member: 63191]Evidence is not about what we believe. People have all sorts of crazy beliefs. It is about what one can support and how.[/QUOTE]
This reminds me of something. Some here say they communicate with spirits. How do you view that? You can't see them; I can't see them. Are these people lying, or demented?

 

[YoursTrue]

My advice to the nations is to stop fighting each other, to teat all your citizens fairly, to take care of the environment in your nations so that it is not harmed and downgraded to not allow your citizens to steal or murder or do anything else that will harm others. To educate all your citizens and to make sure everyone has enough to eat and is housed and has a good and affordable medical system and that all your people are given work and a wage that is fair and that they can live on without being in poverty. To assist other countries with aid when disaster strikes them. etc etc.

As long a there is corruption on the earth, nation will not stop fighting against nation. Neither will crime stop within a nation.

 

[YoursTrue]

So, nations don't need weapons to maintain their security from being invaded by other nations, yet a nation needs weapons to maintain security within its own borders?

You know, you bring up an interesting point. As I mentioned to another poster, these things will not stop as long as mankind itself is corrupt, within and without. Think of the first couple in the Bible. Adam virtually killed himself, they both sinned against God causing death upon themselves. But then their son killed his brother. Right away. And others were looking to kill Cain. Right away. So murderous corruption was right at the beginning of mankind's history.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My advice to the nations is to stop fighting each other, to teat all your citizens fairly, to take care of the environment in your nations so that it is not harmed and downgraded to not allow your citizens to steal or murder or do anything else that will harm others. To educate all your citizens and to make sure everyone has enough to eat and is housed and has a good and affordable medical system and that all your people are given work and a wage that is fair and that they can live on without being in poverty. To assist other countries with aid when disaster strikes them. etc etc.

Good advice. By what mandate will that advice be distributed and implemented?

The key here, is that anyone can give advice, but to only to a few is given the power of implementation.

Regards Tony

 

[Palehorse]

I do not expect (or hope) that this thread will reach anything like the length of the late thread titled just "Evidence." However, I think it's time that we began having some discussion, since @TransmutingSoul seems determined not to discuss how evidence might be used or evaluated in his thread. (Why do I think it won't be so long? Because I do not anticipate the evidence insisters in the other thread to participate very much. From what I've seen, they don't have much to contribute.)

A bullet casing, found lying in the street, may well be "evidence" of something, and that something may well be a crime. Then again, it could be almost anything else, too: a relic dropped by accident, a deliberately placed clue in a private game about which we know nothing because we're not playing. So that bullet casing, while it might be "evidence," is entirely useless "as evidence" unless somebody starts asking -- and answering -- questions about it.

I think, for purposes of this thread, however, we should stick to those pieces of "evidence" provided in the other thread. For reference, these are:



I'll begin with my first, most obvious thoughts:

1. How can a person, who claims to be a "Messenger from God," be identified as such by any means other than his own claim?
2. Would it not be necessary to show that "The Revelation" they give could not have been given unless it were provided by God? And can it be shown, before whatever transformation and change is intended actually occurs, that that transformation will be for the betterment of humanity?
3. Would it be necessary to show that "The Word - The Message" could not have been written or articulated by a mere human, without divine assistance? How would that be accomplished? And, like the writings of Karl Marx, sitting in the British Museum, can they be demonstrated to be certain to give the desired results? It does not appear, after all, that Marx's words did.

I would have to ask...."you state 'we'...who is "we"......?......you and the people viewing your thread...or. you and your religion...?

 

[Subduction Zone]

This reminds me of something. Some here say they communicate with spirits. How do you view that? You can't see them; I can't see them. Are these people lying, or demented?

Probably mistaken. Humans will see patterns where in reality none exist. There is even a term for this. It is called "pareidolia". You might want to look it up. Have you ever seen a cloud and said "Oh! A bunny!" The same sort of thing can happen to people at night. If they expect to see "spirits" they will often see spirits. Yet a photograph shows nothing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, nations don't need weapons to maintain their security from being invaded by other nations, yet a nation needs weapons to maintain security within its own borders?

Yes, we are not perfect CG, there will always be the criminal element.

There will be no weapons of mass destruction, they will not need needed.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, Tony. I just know how to recognize a fraud.

I will offer, hand on heart, that many have been unable to determine that.

The quandary is, it may be our own self that creates the illusion of fraud, where there is none.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As long a there is corruption on the earth, nation will not stop fighting against nation. Neither will crime stop within a nation.

There will always be good and evil on earth. That is part of creation.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".

There is no flaw in creation, it fulfills its purpose.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

Would it not be necessary to show that "The Revelation" they give could not have been given unless it were provided by God? And can it be shown, before whatever transformation and change is intended actually occurs, that that transformation will be for the betterment of humanity?

It cannot be shown. It is up to the individual to decide that for themselves. There is no "objective" criteria for that. End of my contribution.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I would have to ask...."you state 'we'...who is "we"......?......you and the people viewing your thread...or. you and your religion...?

If you look, you can see that under "Religion," my profile says "None." That means what it says.

Therefore, obviously, I mean the people sharing this thread with me.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It cannot be shown. It is up to the individual to decide that for themselves. There is no "objective" criteria for that. End of my contribution.

Well, it's a decent enough contribution.

However, it also says, essentially, "one sees what one wants to see, and evidence has nothing to do with it."

 

[F1fan]

You know, you bring up an interesting point. As I mentioned to another poster, these things will not stop as long as mankind itself is corrupt, within and without. Think of the first couple in the Bible. Adam virtually killed himself, they both sinned against God causing death upon themselves. But then their son killed his brother. Right away. And others were looking to kill Cain. Right away. So murderous corruption was right at the beginning of mankind's history.

And if you are a Christian it is all because that is how God created it all. So if you don't lik it the blame falls on the Creator. If God wantd a different outcome don't you think e would hav made it th way he wanted?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It cannot be shown. It is up to the individual to decide that for themselves. There is no "objective" criteria for that. End of my contribution.

@Pete in Panama

I agree there is a hight factor of individual choice in acceptance.

I have to offer everyone looses me when they bring out labels about knowledge and faith.

(I have to look up many meanings of words people post, such is life!)

Logically, by use of the words meaning, to me, when one is given the choice to accept a new Faith, one has to be Objective.

Subjective meaning is "based on, or influenced by, personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

Objective meaning is "(of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts".

Are not the people who are subjective in faith or science, limiting themselves to see the New Message in an objective manner? Are they not the ones that have persecuted the Messengers?

So I logically consider that it is not possible to say "It cannot be shown", as Abdul'baha said we must bring forth logical proofs and arguments and be Objective in our consideration of those proofs and arguments.

My brain hurts. It's all too much!

Plug me back into the matrix please!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, it's a decent enough contribution.

However, it also says, essentially, "one sees what one wants to see, and evidence has nothing to do with it."

@Pete in Panama

I agree there is a hight factor of individual choice in acceptance.

I have to offer everyone looses me when they bring out labels about knowledge and faith.

(I have to look up many meanings of words people post, such is life!)

Logically, by use of the words meaning, to me, when one is given the choice to accept a new Faith, one has to be Objective.

Subjective meaning is "based on, or influenced by, personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

Objective meaning is "(of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts".

Are not the people who are subjective in faith or science, limiting themselves to see the New Message in an objective manner? Are they not the ones that have persecuted the Messengers?

So I logically consider that it is not possible to say "It cannot be shown", as Abdul'baha said we must bring forth logical proofs and arguments and be Objective in our consideration of those proofs and arguments.

My brain hurts. It's all too much!

Plug me back into the matrix please!

Regards Tony

That was my thoughts.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

Well, it's a decent enough contribution.

However, it also says, essentially, "one sees what one wants to see, and evidence has nothing to do with it."

What is evidence for one person, is not for the other, because it is not objective evidence.