Evidence -- making it useful

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony so far you have shown that there is not. That is because you have never properly supported any of your evidence claims.

Perhaps you are trying to refute the Baha'i faith. You do such a poor job supporting it that is what it looks like to the rest of us.

I think I finally realised I am not obligated, nor should I try to prove any evidence of faith, to those that do not want to pursue it.

Yet I am a slow learner.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think I finally realised I am not obligated, nor should I try to prove any evidence of faith, to those that do not want to pursue it.

Yet I am a slow learner.

Regards Tony

Are you sure about that? Doesn't your religion tell you that you should be an honest man? When you go into a debate you go in bearing a burden of proof for your positive assertions.

By the way, you have been told many many times that there is nothing wrong with having a personal belief. It is wrong to make false claims about it such as stating "I have evidence" when all fo your later actions show that you do not. There are other reasons than evidence to hold a belief.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..It is wrong to make false claims about it such as stating "I have evidence"..

We do have evidence .. but you don't accept it.
The evidence is the Bible & Qur'an.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you sure about that? Doesn't your religion tell you that you should be an honest man? When you go into a debate you go in bearing a burden of proof for your positive assertions.

By the way, you have been told many many times that there is nothing wrong with having a personal belief. It is wrong to make false claims about it such as stating "I have evidence" when all fo your later actions show that you do not. There are other reasons than evidence to hold a belief.

Being a slow learner does not mean dishonesty is an automatic label.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

We do have evidence .. but you don't accept it.
The evidence is the Bible & Qur'an.

Why should any rational person accept either of those as evidence?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Being a slow learner does not mean dishonesty is an automatic label.

Regards Tony

Perhaps, But it is hard to believe that a person could be so slow. The problem with irrational beliefs is that it can make one appear to be "slower" than they really are.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why should any rational person accept either of those as evidence?

Ask the 50% of the world population that believe if they are being irrational.
It's only your opinion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ask the 50% of the world population that believe if they are being irrational.
It's only your opinion.

It does not matter what their opinion is. It is what they can demonstrate. You do know that you just used a logical fallacy, don't you? That only supports my claim that you appear to have an irrational belief. It does not "prove" it, but a person that was reasoning rationally would know better.

 

[Eric Hyom]

It does not matter what their opinion is. It is what they can demonstrate.

You cannot prove the universe came into existence purely by natural causes.
You can't prove life started from no life and only by natural causes.
All you can do is believe.
Clever arguments are not accepted as truth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You cannot prove the universe came into existence purely by natural causes.
You can't prove life started from no life and only by natural causes.
All you can do is believe.
Clever arguments are not accepted as truth.

You don't seem to understand the burden of proof either. I do not need to prove that. If you want to claim that a God exists the burden of proof is upon you.

As to life from no life, no we can do much more than believe. There is quite a bit of evidence for it. We simply do not have all of the answers yet. Meanwhile there still is no evidence for a creator of any sort. The person with the larger burden of proof is the theist. We know that the universe exists, we do not know that a god exists.

 

[SkepticThinker]

We do have evidence .. but you don't accept it.
The evidence is the Bible & Qur'an.

Those are the claims.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You don't seem to understand the burden of proof either. I do not need to prove that. If you want to claim that a God exists the burden of proof is upon you.

That is not the way God works with humanity.

It is our own choice to pursue what God has given us, as what God gives us is the required standard of Living.

An example is that we are told that we need to unite the Nations and start a process of disarmament of all nations, except for what is needed for internal security.

Now at the time many could not see the wisdom in that advice, but it is more apparent this needs to happen now.

So in the 1800's before the World wars, and the spending on armaments we now face, here are 2 examples of what was offered to the rulers of earth.

"O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions". – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 254.

Compose your differences, and reduce your armaments, that the burden of your expenditures may be lightened, and that your minds and hearts may be tranquillized. Heal the dissensions that divide you, and ye will no longer be in need of any armaments except what the protection of your cities and territories demandeth. Fear ye God, and take heed not to outstrip the bounds of moderation, and be numbered among the extravagant.

We have learned that you are increasing your outlay every year, and are laying the burden thereof on your subjects. This, verily, is more than they can bear, and is a grievous injustice. Decide justly between men, and be ye the emblems of justice amongst them. This, if ye judge fairly, is the thing that behoveth you, and beseemeth your station." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 250-251.

At the same time the Promises of what can happen if we follow this advice is also given.

This is a summary of what some of thos promises are.

"The enormous energy dissipated and wasted on war, whether economic or political, will be consecrated to such ends as will extend the range of human inventions and technical development, to the increase of the productivity of mankind, to the extermination of disease, to the extension of scientific research, to the raising of the standard of physical health, to the sharpening and refinement of the human brain, to the exploitation of the unused and unsuspected resources of the planet, to the prolongation of human life, and to the furtherance of any other agency that can stimulate the intellectual, the moral, and spiritual life of the entire human race." – Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 202

There is an enormous amount of advice available. All found in the available evidence God gives us. The Message from God.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

Those are the claims.

Claims of what?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Claims of what?

Gods and supernatural events.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Gods and supernatural events.

I see no Gods .. I see only G-d.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I see no Gods .. I see only G-d.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why should any rational person accept either of those as evidence?

Those are the claims.

That is not the way God works with humanity.

It is our own choice to pursue what God has given us, as what God gives us is the required standard of Living.

An example is that we are told that we need to unite the Nations and start a process of disarmament of all nations, except for what is needed for internal security.

Now at the time many could not see the wisdom in that advice, but it is more apparent this needs to happen now.

So in the 1800's before the World wars, and the spending on armaments we now face, here are 2 examples of what was offered to the rulers of earth.

"O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions". – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 254.

Compose your differences, and reduce your armaments, that the burden of your expenditures may be lightened, and that your minds and hearts may be tranquillized. Heal the dissensions that divide you, and ye will no longer be in need of any armaments except what the protection of your cities and territories demandeth. Fear ye God, and take heed not to outstrip the bounds of moderation, and be numbered among the extravagant.

We have learned that you are increasing your outlay every year, and are laying the burden thereof on your subjects. This, verily, is more than they can bear, and is a grievous injustice. Decide justly between men, and be ye the emblems of justice amongst them. This, if ye judge fairly, is the thing that behoveth you, and beseemeth your station." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 250-251.

At the same time the Promises of what can happen if we follow this advice is also given.

This is a summary of what some of thos promises are.

"The enormous energy dissipated and wasted on war, whether economic or political, will be consecrated to such ends as will extend the range of human inventions and technical development, to the increase of the productivity of mankind, to the extermination of disease, to the extension of scientific research, to the raising of the standard of physical health, to the sharpening and refinement of the human brain, to the exploitation of the unused and unsuspected resources of the planet, to the prolongation of human life, and to the furtherance of any other agency that can stimulate the intellectual, the moral, and spiritual life of the entire human race." – Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 202

There is an enormous amount of advice available. All found in the available evidence God gives us. The Message from God.

Regards Tony

It was asked as to "Why should any rational person accept either of those as evidence".

It is by reason and logic we can examine the evidence to see of there is any truth to the Claims contained within.

We can use the example of the world conflicts and other convulsions that rock humanity.

We can examine the evidence to see if fair warning and guidance has been given. An all knowing God should know what guidance we need and also able to warn us about the consequences of neglect.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

It was asked as to "Why should any rational person accept either of those as evidence".

It is by reason and logic we can examine the evidence to see of there is any truth to the Claims contained within.

We can use the example of the world conflicts and other convulsions that rock humanity.

We can examine the evidence to see if fair warning and guidance has been given. An all knowing God should know what guidance we need and also able to warn us about the consequences of neglect.

Regards Tony

Maybe, but it is clear that you cannot do this. Your arguments are post hoc rationalizations at best.

Tell us a claim, how you would "examine the evidence" and why it confirms your beliefs. This is not unreasonable.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe, but it is clear that you cannot do this. Your arguments are post hoc rationalizations at best.

Tell us a claim, how you would "examine the evidence" and why it confirms your beliefs. This is not unreasonable.

You are able to come up with so many diversions, now post hoc rationalizations!

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

That is not the way God works with humanity.

It is our own choice to pursue what God has given us, as what God gives us is the required standard of Living.

No God has been verififed as existing, so these statements can't be accepted as true. This is only your religious dogma, and without showing any God exists it is irrelevant.

An example is that we are told that we need to unite the Nations and start a process of disarmament of all nations, except for what is needed for internal security.

That is what the United Nations have done. It was done to help prevent another world war by developing a detailed plan. Let's note that this plan is nothing that Baha'u'llah came up with. The UN needed more detail and an actual plan to organize.

Now at the time many could not see the wisdom in that advice, but it is more apparent this needs to happen now.

The idea of global peace was not unique to Baha'u'llah. And he offered no substantive plan to make it happen while he was alive, nor even after his death.

So in the 1800's before the World wars, and the spending on armaments we now face, here are 2 examples of what was offered to the rulers of earth.

"O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions". – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 254.

Compose your differences, and reduce your armaments, that the burden of your expenditures may be lightened, and that your minds and hearts may be tranquillized. Heal the dissensions that divide you, and ye will no longer be in need of any armaments except what the protection of your cities and territories demandeth. Fear ye God, and take heed not to outstrip the bounds of moderation, and be numbered among the extravagant.

We have learned that you are increasing your outlay every year, and are laying the burden thereof on your subjects. This, verily, is more than they can bear, and is a grievous injustice. Decide justly between men, and be ye the emblems of justice amongst them. This, if ye judge fairly, is the thing that behoveth you, and beseemeth your station." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 250-251.

At the same time the Promises of what can happen if we follow this advice is also given.

This is a summary of what some of thos promises are.

"The enormous energy dissipated and wasted on war, whether economic or political, will be consecrated to such ends as will extend the range of human inventions and technical development, to the increase of the productivity of mankind, to the extermination of disease, to the extension of scientific research, to the raising of the standard of physical health, to the sharpening and refinement of the human brain, to the exploitation of the unused and unsuspected resources of the planet, to the prolongation of human life, and to the furtherance of any other agency that can stimulate the intellectual, the moral, and spiritual life of the entire human race." – Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 202

There is an enormous amount of advice available. All found in the available evidence God gives us. The Message from God.

Lots of idealism, not enough practical "how to". This is why it failed. It wasn't even useful for the UN because they needed detailed planning that Baha'u'llah had nothing to offer. Let's note that Baha'i offered no plan to stop putin from invading Ukraine, so what use is it? If Baha'i really wnated to make a difference they would advocate for education and teaching reasoning skill. This is the best way for citizens to avoid voting for criminal leaders. What do we see them doing on this forum? Asking us to join their religion.