Evidence of NOAH's FLOOD

[McBell]

But not to anyone who has actually read that story, and how an olive tree was unaffected by a river flood which was only 15 cubits high.
About a year ago we had a similar flood which was over 26 cubits high and also covered the mountains but did not affect the olive trees growing outside the flooded area either, and some people are still homeless.

Genesis 7:20 KJV -
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail;

and the mountains were covered.

Is that where the phrase "making mountains out of molehills" comes from?

 

[wellwisher]

The bible, however, obviously doesn't refer to the recently named Mt Ararat in Turkey or to Mt Ararat in Australia or to the other hills also recently named Mt Ararat, but refers to the "mountains of Ararat" which were hills on the flood plain in Mesopotamia, given that the bible clearly says the flood was only 15 cubits high and had no effect on an olive tree.

If you ever worked with hydroponics, plants can survive and even thrive within water, as long as there is enough oxygen in the water. In hydroponics you can use air stones like in aquariums. The best way for an olive tree or any tree to survive in flood water, would be turbulent moving water for aeration; through rocks, until the water drains. If the water stagnates in pools, then bacteria can lowering the oxygen to critical levels, and survival will be less assured.

This suggests Noah was moving with the currents, and there was a current where he saw the olive branch. Mesopotamia contains the Tigris-Euphrates river system, which does flood.

Mesopotamia[a] is a historical region of West Asia situated within the Tigris–Euphrates river system, in the northern part of the Fertile Crescent. Today, Mesopotamia occupies modern Iraq.[1][2] In the broader sense, the historical region included present-day Iraq and parts of present-day Iran, Kuwait, Syriaand Turkey.[3][4]

 

[Subduction Zone]

But not to anyone who has actually read that story, and how an olive tree was unaffected by a river flood which was only 15 cubits high.
About a year ago we had a similar flood which was over 26 cubits high and also covered the mountains but did not affect the olive trees growing outside the flooded area either, and some people are still homeless.

Genesis 7:20 KJV -
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail;

and the mountains were covered.

You have to be careful with the KJV. It is written in English that is not exactly the same as modern English. You should be looking at more modern translations. When you rely on an outdated translation a single sentence is easy to misinterpret. It is better to read a longer passage:

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

If you note in context the high hills were covered first and then it rose more. It rose at least 15 cubits more after the high hills were covered. I do not think that even back then in that limited area did they think that mountains were only twenty feet or three meters high.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you ever worked with hydroponics, plants can survive and even thrive within water, as long as there is enough oxygen in the water. In hydroponics you can use air stones like in aquariums. The best way for an olive tree or any tree to survive in flood water, would be turbulent moving water for aeration; through rocks, until the water drains. If the water stagnates in pools, then bacteria can lowering the oxygen to critical levels, and survival will be less assured.

This suggests Noah was moving with the currents, and there was a current where he saw the olive branch. Mesopotamia contains the Tigris-Euphrates river system, which does flood.

Citation needed.

 

[Monty]

If you ever worked with hydroponics, plants can survive and even thrive within water, as long as there is enough oxygen in the water. In hydroponics you can use air stones like in aquariums. The best way for an olive tree or any tree to survive in flood water, would be turbulent moving water for aeration; through rocks, until the water drains. If the water stagnates in pools, then bacteria can lowering the oxygen to critical levels, and survival will be less assured.

This suggests Noah was moving with the currents, and there was a current where he saw the olive branch. Mesopotamia contains the Tigris-Euphrates river system, which does flood.

The bible, however, says that the flood was only 15 cubits high, and the olive tree was obviously growing outside the flooded area. Perhaps Noah's pet bird also had a snack on a banana growing there too.
As a retired plant physiologist and orchardist, I can assure you that olive trees cannot survive being completely submerged for over six months

 

[Monty]

You have to be careful with the KJV. It is written in English that is not exactly the same as modern English. You should be looking at more modern translations. When you rely on an outdated translation a single sentence is easy to misinterpret. It is better to read a longer passage:

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

If you note in context the high hills were covered first and then it rose more. It rose at least 15 cubits more after the high hills were covered. I do not think that even back then in that limited area did they think that mountains were only twenty feet or three meters high.

The Hebrew bible and Young's literal translation etc, however, also say that the water only rose 15 cubits, and that the highest hills in the flooded area (ie within the horizon - "under the whole heaven") were therefore less than 15 cubits higher than the normal river level. And it doesn't say that the waters prevailed 15 cubits above the highest hills/mountains. Any other interpretation of that story and the Hebrew text is just pure fantasy with zero credibility, and given that the bible says that a nearby olive tree was unaffected anyway. And I prefer to accept the interpretation by the KJV & the Hebrew bible & YLT instead of the other versions by evangelicals which bend the actual wording into a pure fantasy.

 

[Monty]

Is that where the phrase "making mountains out of molehills" comes from?

And small hills on riverine floodplains are often given names, such as Mt Scobie and Mt Dhurringile and Mt Ardmona on our flood plain.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Hebrew bible and Young's literal translation etc, however, also say that the water only rose 15 cubits, and that the highest hills in the flooded area (ie within the horizon - "under the whole heaven") were therefore less than 15 cubits higher than the normal river level. Any other interpretation of that story is just pure fantasy with zero credibility, and given that the bible says that a nearby olive tree was unaffected.

What do you mean by "the Hebrew Bible". And you may be taking quotes out of context.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And small hills on riverine floodplains are often given names, such as Mt Scobie and Mt Dhurringile and Mt Ardmona on our flood plain.

Okay, I have had little experience with this myself and you appear to have a point. Many years ago while working for the Minnesota Geological Survey we were in the Fargo/Moorhead area, It was so flat that you could swear that you could see the curvature of the Earth. We were told how to find a place that we were looking for and there last sentence was "On top of the hill." Now that was odd to us because there were no hill for miles around. But off I drove. I was rather young then and drove to fast. We drove past a place and I hit the brakes. The house was on a tiny rise and was five feet higher than anywhere else around. It was "the hill".

 

[Monty]

The Hebrew bible and Young's literal translation etc, however, also say that the water only rose 15 cubits, and that the highest hills in the flooded area (ie within the horizon - "under the whole heaven") were therefore less than 15 cubits higher than the normal river level. And it doesn't say that the flood prevailed 15 cubits Any other interpretation of that story is just pure fantasy with zero credibility, and given that the bible says that a nearby olive tree was unaffected.

What do you mean by "the Hebrew Bible". And you may be taking quotes out of context.

The Orthodox Jewish bible and Young's literal translation both say that the flood was only a realistic 15 cubits high.

Bereshis 7:19-21 OJB -
19 And the waters rose exceedingly upon ha’aretz; and all the high hills, that were under kol HaShomayim, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise; and the harim were covered.
21 And kol basar perished that moved upon ha’aretz, both of Oph, and of Behemah, and of Beast, and of every Swarming Thing that swarms upon ha’aretz, and kol haadam;

Genesis 7:19-21 YLT -
19 And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which [are] under the whole heavens;
20 fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered;
21 and expire doth all flesh that is moving on the earth, among fowl, and among cattle, and among beasts, and among all the teeming things which are teeming on the earth, and all mankind;

I wonder if the writers of the evangelical fantasy versions ever discussed their interpretations of the Hebrew text with a rabbi or a Hebrew scholar.

 

[Monty]

Okay, I have had little experience with this myself and you appear to have a point. Many years ago while working for the Minnesota Geological Survey we were in the Fargo/Moorhead area, It was so flat that you could swear that you could see the curvature of the Earth. We were told how to find a place that we were looking for and there last sentence was "On top of the hill." Now that was odd to us because there were no hill for miles around. But off I drove. I was rather young then and drove to fast. We drove past a place and I hit the brakes. The house was on a tiny rise and was five feet higher than anywhere else around. It was "the hill".

And some of those rises are even named as "Mount ****" on the maps.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Orthodox Jewish bible and Young's literal translation both say that the flood was only a realistic 15 cubits high.

Bereshis 7:19-21 OJB -
19 And the waters rose exceedingly upon ha’aretz; and all the high hills, that were under kol HaShomayim, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise; and the harim were covered.
21 And kol basar perished that moved upon ha’aretz, both of Oph, and of Behemah, and of Beast, and of every Swarming Thing that swarms upon ha’aretz, and kol haadam;

Genesis 7:19-21 YLT -
19 And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which [are] under the whole heavens;
20 fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered;
21 and expire doth all flesh that is moving on the earth, among fowl, and among cattle, and among beasts, and among all the teeming things which are teeming on the earth, and all mankind;

I wonder if the writers of the evangelical fantasy versions ever discussed their interpretations of the Hebrew text with a rabbi or a Hebrew scholar.

Links please.

 

[Monty]

Links please.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1 - New International Version 7:19-21&version=YLT

Genesis 7:20 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Subduction Zone]

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1 - New International Version 7:19-21&version=YLT

Genesis 7:20 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Okay in context the flood seemed rise up another 15 cubits after it covered the high hills. So more than 15 cubits total, but still not very deep at all:

Bible Gateway passage: Bereshis 7 - Orthodox Jewish Bible

And Hashem said unto Noach, Come thou and all thy bais into the tevah (ark); for thee have I found tzaddik before Me in dor hazeh. Of every behemah hatehorah thou shalt take to thee by sevens; the male and his mate; and of behemah that are not tehorah by two, the male and his mate. Of also Oph...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Monty]

Okay in context the flood seemed rise up another 15 cubits after it covered the high hills. So more than 15 cubits total, but still not very deep at all:

Bible Gateway passage: Bereshis 7 - Orthodox Jewish Bible

And Hashem said unto Noach, Come thou and all thy bais into the tevah (ark); for thee have I found tzaddik before Me in dor hazeh. Of every behemah hatehorah thou shalt take to thee by sevens; the male and his mate; and of behemah that are not tehorah by two, the male and his mate. Of also Oph...

www.biblegateway.com

It certainly does not say that in the King's English, however. The KJV & YLT & OJB say that the water only rose 15 cubits and the high hills were covered, and DO NOT say that the high hills were covered by another 15 cubits above the first unquoted flood level of over 8800 metres as claimed by the evangelical fantasy versions - which make zero sense. The only measurement quoted as the flood height is 15 cubits, and the context only says that the highest hills were covered, but not by how much.

 

[Sargonski]

Okay in context the flood seemed rise up another 15 cubits after it covered the high hills. So more than 15 cubits total, but still not very deep at all:

Bible Gateway passage: Bereshis 7 - Orthodox Jewish Bible

And Hashem said unto Noach, Come thou and all thy bais into the tevah (ark); for thee have I found tzaddik before Me in dor hazeh. Of every behemah hatehorah thou shalt take to thee by sevens; the male and his mate; and of behemah that are not tehorah by two, the male and his mate. Of also Oph...

www.biblegateway.com

It certainly does not say that in the King's English, however. The KJV & YLT & OJB say that the water only rose 15 cubits and the high hills were covered, and DO NOT say that the high hills were covered by another 15 cubits above the first unquoted flood level of over 8800 metres as claimed by the evangelical fantasy versions - which make zero sense. The only measurement quoted as the flood height is 15 cubits, and the context only says that the highest hills were covered, but not by how much.

OK -- there was no Global Flood going even 1 cubit over the tallest Mountain ... never mind 15 cubits. .. and doesn't make much of a difference in terms of "Way too much Water" calculations. we are talking the difference between 8842 and 8849 meters ..

but anyway .. didn't happen .. not even the low lying land was completely flooded some 4200 years ago -- should be able to dig down in your backyard in Nevada and find the flood layer ..... not too deep .. and you should be able to do this everywhere over the whole earth for the most part .. but it is simply not there and whats more -- we have continuous culture throughout the time period where the Flood was supposed to have happened 300 years prior to Abraham -- taking us to roughly 2100-2400 BC -- the vast majority looking at the earlier date putting abe closer to 1800 BC rather than 2100 BC

All kinds of continuous cultures all over the world throughout that time period -- when none should exist.

 

[Subduction Zone]

OK -- there was no Global Flood going even 1 cubit over the tallest Mountain ... never mind 15 cubits. .. and doesn't make much of a difference in terms of "Way too much Water" calculations. we are talking the difference between 8842 and 8849 meters ..

but anyway .. didn't happen .. not even the low lying land was completely flooded some 4200 years ago -- should be able to dig down in your backyard in Nevada and find the flood layer ..... not too deep .. and you should be able to do this everywhere over the whole earth for the most part .. but it is simply not there and whats more -- we have continuous culture throughout the time period where the Flood was supposed to have happened 300 years prior to Abraham -- taking us to roughly 2100-2400 BC -- the vast majority looking at the earlier date putting abe closer to 1800 BC rather than 2100 BC

All kinds of continuous cultures all over the world throughout that time period -- when none should exist.

His argument is that it was a local flood and that the "mountains" were not even what we would call a hill where I live right now. But I have worked in flat areas like the very very broad river valley that he thinks that it happened in where a five foot rise was known all around as "the hill". A misplaced twenty foot rise could be called "mountain" by the locals. This flood would of course not have accomplished what was said that the flood did in the Bible. Nor would it have lasted for a year.

When one is dealing with the myths the problems are endless.

 

[Monty]

OK -- there was no Global Flood going even 1 cubit over the tallest Mountain ... never mind 15 cubits. .. and doesn't make much of a difference in terms of "Way too much Water" calculations. we are talking the difference between 8842 and 8849 meters ..

but anyway .. didn't happen .. not even the low lying land was completely flooded some 4200 years ago -- should be able to dig down in your backyard in Nevada and find the flood layer ..... not too deep .. and you should be able to do this everywhere over the whole earth for the most part .. but it is simply not there and whats more -- we have continuous culture throughout the time period where the Flood was supposed to have happened 300 years prior to Abraham -- taking us to roughly 2100-2400 BC -- the vast majority looking at the earlier date putting abe closer to 1800 BC rather than 2100 BC

All kinds of continuous cultures all over the world throughout that time period -- when none should exist.

The bible only describes one of thousands of similar river floods which have drowned people and their animals, and which was only 15 cubits high.

 

[Monty]

His argument is that it was a local flood and that the "mountains" were not even what we would call a hill where I live right now. But I have worked in flat areas like the very very broad river valley that he thinks that it happened in where a five foot rise was known all around as "the hill". A misplaced twenty foot rise could be called "mountain" by the locals. This flood would of course not have accomplished what was said that the flood did in the Bible. Nor would it have lasted for a year.

When one is dealing with the myths the problems are endless.

But the bible says that the flood had no effect on an olive tree or Noah's brothers Jabal & Jubal (Gen 4:20-21), and that it covered the land to the horizon. And says nothing about a global flood, but only one that affected Noah's world and his family and their animals. And no different to the floods in Bangladesh and other flood prone areas. But how would the evangelists frighten their little kids if they said that. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-flood-affected-areas-in-Bangladesh_fig1_326263766

 

[Subduction Zone]

But the bible says that the flood had no effect on an olive tree or Noah's brothers Jabal & Jubal (Gen 4:20-21), and that it covered the land to the horizon. And nothing about a global flood, but only one that affected Noah's world and his family and their animals. And no different to the floods in Bangladesh and other flood prone areas. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-of-flood-affected-areas-in-Bangladesh_fig1_326263766

The flood that I often link as the most likely flood was one where if one had been in the middle of it in a boat one would have only seen water from horizon to horizon. I can see how that could easily be exaggerated to the whole world being covered in water. Outside of the Tigris Euphrates valley system people would have been saying "What flood?"