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Evidence of the Non-Physical

Actually, I was quoting from a physics monograph there, you'd have to take that claim up with Haag. My claim is that the action principle was clearly and obviously a development from theological principles. Those who developed it were quite clear about their rationale. They happened to be right about its importance, and it was their theological presuppositions and theological worldview that enabled both earlier developments upon which the action principle emerged formally (namely, Newtonian mechanics, which were also clearly and explicitly developed by Newton both as evidence for God and based on theological principles of a rational cosmos created by a rational deity) as well as their own work.

So, again, at best theology inspired people, in this case Newton. If you know calculus, you'll note there are exactly zero appeals to divinity in it. Indeed, if you try to put divinity into calculus, you ruin the calculus.

Theology isn't in calculus, cannot be derived from calculus and at the very best inspired its creation. Theology itself did not produce calculus. You cannot derive calculus from theology.

I don't have much use for it and don't find any in physics, although I find it interesting in general. That said, I know that in particular certain work in logic and set theory as well as other foundational mathematics continues to be furthered due to theological arguments by theologians and philosophers, both believers and non-believers (see e.g., Logic and Theism by Sobel and the later references to his work on Gödel's unpublished argument for god. It's not much, certainly. There may be more that theology continues to offer the sciences and mathematics that I am not aware of. Mostly I think its importance comes (at least within foundation physics and cosmology) from understanding where a great many of our modern tools, models, approaches, and ideas have their origin since they now appear mysterious to us but apparently were not so long ago when we knew considerably less about the physical world. But like a lot of academic work, I think that most theology (and again, I'm not a theologian but a physicist so I'm biased on this) is like many other fields- important to those in the field and those interested in it, but with little influence outside of its scope.


Current debates on e.g., multiverse theory among physicists and cosmologists continue to be inspired by the ability to "explain" without a creator:
"To the hard-line physicist, the multiverse may not be entirely respectable, but it is at least preferable to invoking a Creator. Indeed anthropically inclined physicists like Susskind and Weinberg are attracted to the multiverse precisely because it seems to dispense with God as the explanation of cosmic design"
from the editor's introduction to the volume Carr, B. (Ed.). (2007). Universe or Multiverse?. Cambridge University Press.

This is self-contradictory.

Have you read much of what Newton wrote?

Theology offers nothing to sciences and mathematics. What could it possibly offer? Some new metaphor, desperately engaging in mental gymnastics to link scripture to science?

Theology is nothing more than complicated metaphor invoking. It's only interesting to fellow believers because those believers share in the same worldview and religious communication culture.

In fact, you could produce exactly the same arguments, equally compelling, from a Lord of the Rings theology as you can from a Christian theology. It's just that the only people who'd be interested in such a theology are those well versed in Tolkien's mythologies.

My point is that Christian theology is derived from a religious cultural system that structures a way of thinking, communicating and experiencing reality. From there, people encultured to this system interpret and experience science, philosophy and math.

However, science and math are not reliant on theology; it's entirely worthless to their pursuits except as inspiration. Theology is in none of our scientific models. It doesn't inform them, cannot add to them. The very best theology can do is interpret them for those encultured to Christianity or whatever religious system is used to translate science to believers.

So, you've provided examples of people inspired by theology. Now provide a scientific theory that requires theology. Put the Thor into the lightning so to speak. If you can do that, you've got a case.
 
Current debates on e.g., multiverse theory among physicists and cosmologists continue to be inspired by the ability to "explain" without a creator:
"To the hard-line physicist, the multiverse may not be entirely respectable, but it is at least preferable to invoking a Creator. Indeed anthropically inclined physicists like Susskind and Weinberg are attracted to the multiverse precisely because it seems to dispense with God as the explanation of cosmic design"
from the editor's introduction to the volume Carr, B. (Ed.). (2007). Universe or Multiverse?. Cambridge University Press.


This is self-contradictory.

The only reason to contrast Creator/no Creator is religious enculturation. This binary is only appealing to those who've grown up in a culture that involves a religion with a creator.

It's an unnecessary step, a false null hypothesis. It's not obvious to people who grow up atheist or people from cultures without creator-deities.

There are no deities or divinities in our scientific explanatory models - not a single one. If you try to add them in, they ruin the model, destroy its explanatory power and force meaningless hypotheses about the divinity.

So, to posit that the opposite possibility of no-creator is a creator is literally just a function of you growing up in a culture that has a creator-deity in it. If you did not, such claims would not make sense to you.

Hence theology offers nothing. No universal truths, just cultural baggage and religious metaphor. Make-believe does not make for a useful null hypothesis.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Well, believers in deities and divinities take those belief-systems for granted. So, I guess we're all making a priori assumptions at some point.

The difference is that one set of a priori claims leads to very good explanatory models and the other does not.

Very good is subjective.

Even as an atheist, I still recognize the problematic nature of how some people claim religion is a crutch. If that is so and some people need a helping tool to cope with life, then as long as they don't hit other people with the tool, where is the problem?
So in other words since you accept subjectivity, if a religious person, that uses religion, has it subjectively better, then where is the problem?

And if you want to go down the route of religion is as such wrong, bad or something to that effect, I will be demanding evidence and point out if there is none.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Well, believers in deities and divinities take those belief-systems for granted. So, I guess we're all making a priori assumptions at some point.

The difference is that one set of a priori claims leads to very good explanatory models and the other does not.

Very good is subjective.
Not really, since faith doesn't produce moon landings, or medicine, it doesn't cure or even eradicate disease, it doesn't explain anything in fact. That science, for example, can very successfully explain reality is a given, thus it can be demonstrated as very good at explaining reality when compared to something like faith.

The objective evidence for this would be the relative successes of both methods. So no, in this instance you are wrong to claim the observation was entirely subjective.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Leave me out of it..
I don't subscribe to half-truths and misunderstandings that both sides of this debate are guilty of.

The ToE is a theory whose tenets change regularly. Only the core remains static.
As for creation myths, only G-d knows how mankind was created.
Neither "hey presto and we have Adam" or "Adam evolved from Luca, and thats all there is to it" are likely to be correct, imo.


A ToE is a misnomer. It's a hypothetical theory in physics for when gravity is unified with quantum mechanics. In that field and related fields it's a big deal and is expected to have rippling effects all throughout science and technology. It isn't meant that it will explain everything. On a fundamental scale it could be really informative.

The emergence of life is a problem in organic chemistry, probably not related. Every year progress is made. We have now seen spontaneous emergence of molecules that are amino acids and nucleobases. Eventually if enough steps like this are found we will understand how a pre-cursor RNA was formed.
Spontaneous Emergence of Self-Replicating Molecules Containing Nucleobases and Amino Acids
Being that there are around 10^20 planets and about 40 billion Earth-like planets, and multiple billions of years for these reactions to happen, there is enough time and location for these rare events to happen.
So the process will be understood eventually (especially as supercomputers can work through early condition models as well).
Bringing a supernatural agent into that mix is pointless.

The universal laws themselves are highly rigid and probabilistic. Meaning if something can happen then given enough time it will. Where they emerged from (maybe they are eternal) we don't know. They do not suggest a deity. A deity existing before physical laws is far more absurd of a concept.
 

DNB

Christian
Apparent design in nature doesn't require a designer or an intelligent. Evolution by natural selection is one such example. And the outcomes of the interactions of phenomena, like atoms, are another example. Stars and planets form by gravity. No one is directing them.

Another thing children do is input intelligence into natural phenomena when there is none.
who established the laws of gravity, Mr adolescent?
 

DNB

Christian
It was created to talk about religion and other topic. Nothing to do with 'man' having a spirit.


Good and evil are human, subjective value judgements, either of individuals or societies, based on biological and cultural evolution. Again, nothing at all to to do with a spirit.


That's a theist claim.


Well, so far you haven't produced even the slightest hint of the first suggestion of the smallest iota of a reason to think a god (or spirits) exist.
do animals have such a forum in order to discuss religious matters?
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I don't have a Bible and I don't need one. And I don't need to read it to figure out how to be a human.
but, a morally sound one, you do

Oh, now that's funny, since the god of the bible orders and commits genocide and other crimes against humanity, punishes all of creation because two people ate the wrong fruit (or whatever you think it represents), and then requires a substitute blood sacrifice to make things okay with humans again (to right its own injustice), but only if they believe the self-contradictory nonsense.
 
Very good is subjective.

Even as an atheist, I still recognize the problematic nature of how some people claim religion is a crutch. If that is so and some people need a helping tool to cope with life, then as long as they don't hit other people with the tool, where is the problem?
So in other words since you accept subjectivity, if a religious person, that uses religion, has it subjectively better, then where is the problem?

And if you want to go down the route of religion is as such wrong, bad or something to that effect, I will be demanding evidence and point out if there is none.

If people are made better by believing in whatever religion, the more power to them.

The danger is that religion is make-believe and setting up a social hierarchy on make-believe leads to easy corruption. Once performance in make-believe is your standard, then clever frauds easily and often become your leaders, pedophiles your religious leaders, liars your teachers.

It's perfectly fine to be like a child and think make-believe is wisdom and knowledge if that makes people happier than they'd otherwise be, but the dangers are profound because of the corrupt people, parasites, always vying to take advantage of such a system.

Religion isn't a crutch. It's a danger. As Hitchens' wrote, "religion poisons everything. And I do mean everything."
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
do animals have such a forum in order to discuss religious matters?

You seem to be implying humans are not animals? They are of course. We share over 96% of our DNA with chimpanzees, our closest relatives in the animal kingdom, and along with gorillas, bonobos, gibbons and orangutans, the taxonomy of humans is that they are a species of that family of great apes.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
but, a morally sound one, you do
Name one moral act a theist can do that an atheist cannot? Lets not forget you yourself have espoused homophobic comments on here, so I wonder if your morals care about the well being of others, or avoiding and if possible preventing unnecessary suffering?

Blind adherence to archaic religious dogma isn't morality. Now while I accept the basis for human morality is always subjective, how do you know that what the bible teaches is moral? If you can recognise something as moral then you wouldn't need divine diktat one assumes, if you can't then moral diktat would be no good to you, as you would have no way to know it was moral.

For example in Exodus 21 the bible lays out rules purported to be from a deity, that specifically explain how to buy and own slaves. Do you think there is any context where owning another human being is moral? I personally do not, though that is a subjective moral view of course.
 
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