Evidence

[John53]

I need only pursue it for my own self. After I come to my verdict, I get to live my choice.

Yet here you are trying to spread your choice to others.

 

[John53]

The Evidence for God, is only the evidence provided by God to us since time began.

There is the Prophet (also known by other designations), there is their Revelation that they come to us with and then there is the Message.

Contained in all 3 of those aspects is all the Proof that God has provided to us, for us to know and Love God.

So.

1)The Person - Known as a prophet, or, messenger, or manifestation
2) The Revelation they give - Given to transform society, changes the direction of humanity
3) The Word - The Message given becomes the standard and guidance for the growth of humanity.

That is the evidence, which is provided to each individual to decide upon.

Regards Tony

Someone claiming to speak for God is not evidence to me. If God wants me to follow him he can take 30 seconds to let me know personally.

 

[ChristineM]

Entropy & chaos are unnecessary concepts to
consider how the universe unfolded as it has.

The problem is that most people using the
terms have no understanding of them.
Possibly helpful...
The Second Law of Thermodynamics
Ignore his confusing bathtub water example.

Nope, entropy has everything to do with how the universe unfolded as it has.

Without entropy the universe would still be a uniform ball of expanding plasma.

An in this case your sarcasm is as much use as teaching your granny to suck eggs

 

[Revoltingest]

Nope, entropy has everything to do with how the universe unfolded as it has.

Without entropy the universe would still be a uniform ball of expanding plasma.

An in this case your sarcasm is as much use as teaching your granny to suck eggs

I actually didn't use any sarcasm in that post.
Entropy is a system state, not a process.
It changes, but only as a result of the processes
important to unfolding or our universe.

 

[We Never Know]

You made this claim on another thread and I pointed out that the text you cite is a CLAIM, not evidence. You think it is evidence because you assume your messenger is legitimate. You need to demonstrate that is the case FIRST.


Are we supposed to believe this at face value just because it sounds authoritative? That is circular reasoning: it's true because it says its true.


All of your evidence requires an assumption that it IS what you say it is. A jury has to assess evidence objectively. You presenting quotes is hearsay because the writer is dead and we can't ask him questions about what he wrote. That makes the texts inadmissible as evidence.

"You presenting quotes is hearsay because the writer is dead and we can't ask him questions about what he wrote. That makes the texts inadmissible as evidence"

Do you view/feel that way about all writings from past history?

 

[Bird123]

This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided.

This OP is applicable to all Faiths Moses and Torah, Jesus New Testament, Muhammad Koran, etc), but I will use what has been offered in the Bahai writings.

So Evidence of the Hidden God.

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

After the Manifestations have left the earth, the Word remains as the proof

"Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

So the trial begins, the evidence is already boxed, the defendant/s stand in front of all Humanity

So what can be provided are the links to all the proof given by the Manifestations (defendants).

The person of the Manifestation is one line of evidence, Character references are available.

The Guidence/Wrirings given by them is the other line of Evidence left, that can be linked.

That is all the defendant will give as proof of God.

Now the key here is, we all get to be the jury and the judge. The Manifestations will individually submit to your verdict, so the burden of Justice now falls upon each individual.

Regards Tony

There are no manifestations of God. God has sent no one to tell people what to do. That would be contrary to the system God has in place. God will never ever tell anyone what to choose. It is mankind who fights to control the choices of others.

God is not and never has been hidden. How long did mankind watch birds fly before mankind figured out how? It was there all along.

God, not wanting to intimidate anyone's choices might not say much, however God's actions and great Intelligence can be seen all around. See how well everything works?

Though beliefs are all around and needed when all the facts are not known, it has never ever been about believing , accepting, or following. It's about Discovering what the Best choices really are. It's about what Is!!

What true Discoveries are made believing, accepting or following? Very very few. One must be brave enough to venture into undiscovered country in search of the unknown. Is that you or will you always choose to be dependent on others to discover for you? When one values and fights for beliefs above all else, one truly wanders from Truth and what actually IS!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[ChristineM]

I actually didn't use any sarcasm in that post.
Entropy is a system state, not a process.
It changes, but only as a result of the processes
important to unfolding or our universe.

You didn't? Ok.

Entropy is the decline into disorder that began when the universe began and will reach maximum entropy when there is no thermal energy left.

 

[Quintessence]

I mean, it actually doesn't need to be that complicated.

Listen to what people tell you about the evidence for their gods and accept that it's evidence for their gods. ​

Put another way, accept that when people tell you stuff about themselves and their culture, that they aren't lying to you. These things are, actually, evidence of their gods for them and their people.

There, all done. Simple.

 

[Subduction Zone]

hmm this O.P seems to me a rather unusual method of providing evidence or testing for God.

The usual stuff that humans seek is a little less ambiguous and a bit more realism. The trouble is, there is a rather fundamental barrier that first needs to be both explained and more importantly crossed...epistemology!

unless a person actually seeks the need to understand the questions of where why are we here? where did we come from? and where we are going? Then why would they even be interested in someone attempting to prove God?

That would seem to me to be like trying to sell a male diesel mechanic womens perfume for his workshop. Its kinda useful but not really wanted. Hes likely to pass it onto someone else!

Anyway, despite the above, I would have thought that the usual means of providing an "on the balance of probabilities" case for God might focus on stuff like:
1. historical evidence (archeology and artifacts that support the story)
2. Oral and written tradition
3. consistency in the story and its alignment with other physical evidence
4. perhaps witnesses to the story

now when it comes to the Bible, there are bucket loads of all of the above trails of evidence. The really interesting thing about it is that when it comes to consistency, if the bible was a "con" it is one of the most elaborate and incredibly consistent "cons" in history! The reasons why I say this are:

1. finding of the dead sea scrolls shows that in 2,000 years, the autograph has barely changed even though it has been passed on from person to person, tribe to tribe, country to country without the use of any control mechanism that could even ensure consistency (most of the variants we have have gone across cultures that have even been at war with each other...so fundamentally they would not seek to remain consistent with writings from another cultures)

No, the Dead Sea Scrolls were written long after Judaism became an organized religion. At that time it was not being passed on "person to person" it was a record kept in writing. You may be conflating very early Christianity which appears to have been an oral tradition until it got better organized.

2. the bible refers to a couple of civilisations where the was no other evidence of the existence of said civilisations...until recently when external evidence was found proving the bible account was actually true! (aka Hittites and Assyrians)

The Hittites were not confirmed until the 19th century. But that does not mean that the Bible was "right" they only got the fact that a group of people existed. The Assyrians have had a continued history since 2,500 BCE so I do not know where you got the idea that they were not known to exist from.

3. evidence uncovered of Pontius Pilate...until this evidence was relatively recent found, the entire story of him in the bible was considered by most naysayers as being a biblical fairytale.

So the existence of New York City is evidence for Spiderman? If you are going to play the history game then You have to admit that Luke's Nativity is a myth. You are back to using black and white fallacies. Part of the Bible being right does not mean that all of it is right. But there is good news too. The fact that parts of the Bible are wrong does not make all of it wrong either.

one could go on, but I think the gist of what I am saying has been illustrated.

Yep, bad arguments for Christianity. We got that.

The real problem is, unless a non believer has reason to seek answers to the questions of Epistomology, and isn't satisfied with the evolutionary tale, why would they come searching? Unfortunately what really pains me is that in our schools, we do not teach these things. Its apparently dangerous for kids to be taught about religion/s...dangerous to teach them to really question all possibilities when it comes to explaining our existence. Ive seen facebook groups for a school my kids attended where parents demanded any form of "religious indoctrination" during school hours cease. They based there demands entirely on wives tales without any real evidence at all explaining why. Its really unfortunate that society blocks this...people really do not understand or appreciate the importance of religion in our lives.

anyway, that's my view of it.

The "evolutionary tale"? Are you kidding me? You really do need to learn what a little bit about the world that you live in. There is more evidence for evolution than there is for gravity. There is more evidence for evolution than there is for any murder case. You will also need to learn what qualifies as evidence and why. One can accept evolution and still believe in a God, but if you try to say that God is necessary for life to be in its present form you will lose that debate since there does not appear to be any evidence at all that supports that claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided.

Good luck with that Tony.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided.

This OP is applicable to all Faiths Moses and Torah, Jesus New Testament, Muhammad Koran, etc), but I will use what has been offered in the Bahai writings.

So Evidence of the Hidden God.

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

After the Manifestations have left the earth, the Word remains as the proof

"Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

So the trial begins, the evidence is already boxed, the defendant/s stand in front of all Humanity

So what can be provided are the links to all the proof given by the Manifestations (defendants).

The person of the Manifestation is one line of evidence, Character references are available.

The Guidence/Wrirings given by them is the other line of Evidence left, that can be linked.

That is all the defendant will give as proof of God.

Now the key here is, we all get to be the jury and the judge. The Manifestations will individually submit to your verdict, so the burden of Justice now falls upon each individual.

Regards Tony

Can you say what you think constitutes evidence?

No quoting scripture; in your own words.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I mean, it actually doesn't need to be that complicated.

Listen to what people tell you about the evidence for their gods and accept that it's evidence for their gods. ​

Put another way, accept that when people tell you stuff about themselves and their culture, that they aren't lying to you. These things are, actually, evidence of their gods for them and their people.

There, all done. Simple.

The problem arises when they try to claim that "evidence" should be good enough for others to believe them. Yes, a person may be convinced through all sorts of different ways. That does not mean that they necessarily have a rational belief. When I see theists they often use evidence in the sense of "This should convince you that I am right" and it usually is not evidence by that standard.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Good luck with that Tony.

A comment doomed to failure.

Not that I do not mean it, I just submit to the reality of this matrix.

All the best Trailblazer in Life, Love and Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What test/proof would you request?

I can advise that this was a challenge given by Baha'u'llah. He allowed them to select any poof/test that they wanted from him, the only stipulation was they could only choose one test and had to agree upon it. Then when submitted, thay had to agree if it was performed/presented then they were one and all to embrace the truth of the Cause. They failed to follow through.

There are many individual records of people that went to test Baha'u'llah and what resulted.

So what is available are the records of those that did submit tests to the Messengers. They failed to produce any negative result.

Regards Tony

Can you explain - again, in your own words - how such a test would be evidence of God?

Say there was a clever, skilled charlatan. What sort of tests do you think such a person would be capable of passing?

 

[Trailblazer]

If God wants me to follow him he can take 30 seconds to let me know personally.

So should God send a personal message to all of the 8 billion people in the world?

 

[Trailblazer]

A comment doomed to failure.

I know that all too well, which is why I finally have up.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you say what you think constitutes evidence?

No quoting scripture; in your own words.

I would offer the OP has stated that.

The Person - What better evidence of a person's qualities and attributes is there but their person and their life.

That is the first line of evidence. Is that Person Trustworthy and Truthful?

The Revelation. In all cases this is the first hint of God. Mostly all The Messengers are already known in their community as being Trustworthy and Truthful. Their character is already hinting of the Revelation they will give. The Revelation makes it known they are giving a Message from God and that it is to reform humanity, who have strayed towards materialism and away from God given spiritual attributes and virtues. The Revelation is proof, how were the people living, what changes are asked of them

The Message. This is the standard required. It is usually a radical transformation required, as it reintroduces the Spiritual Virtues and Morals and shows us the error of materialism.

So for this age, if we are to look at what Baha'u'llah offered, in the middle of the 1800's to a very decadent Islamic clergy and totallian rule, to a world about to go to.war on a global scale, we can judge if the Word gave the solutions required.

The Word also becomes evidence of the Revelation and the Messenger.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So should God send a personal message to all of the 8 billion people in the world?

On the other hand, we can consider God does send a Messenger to each of our doors, in one way or another, then it depends if we want to open the door and then have a conversation!

To those that do not get a knock, we know they are exempted from answering.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Someone claiming to speak for God is not evidence to me. If God wants me to follow him he can take 30 seconds to let me know personally.

I will take 30 seconds to offer the evidence as God has given it to us.

To make it personal, Jesus said one must be born again. That is because Jesus as Christ, gave a Revelation and a Message from God, which is the personal Message to each of us.

This is the only way we can know God as we are contained and the contained cannot fathom or know the uncontained.

Thus a link to being born again is understanding the Message given by Jesus the Christ, the Word of God.

The evidence.

OFFICIAL KING JAMES BIBLE ONLINE

Regards Tony

 

[John53]

I mean, it actually doesn't need to be that complicated.

Listen to what people tell you about the evidence for their gods and accept that it's evidence for their gods. ​

Put another way, accept that when people tell you stuff about themselves and their culture, that they aren't lying to you. These things are, actually, evidence of their gods for them and their people.

There, all done. Simple.

So if someone breaks into my house, holds a gun to my head, steals all my valuables while claiming their ability to do this is evidence for their Gods I should just accept it? Kind of an extreme example I know but many people have done evil things in the name of their Gods.

It also brings up the problem of the sheer number of Gods throughout the ages, many with conflicting ideas. Surely they can't all be true?