Evidence

[muhammad_isa]

I think the of 'sin' is an invention made by people to control others.

..to control others?
..or is it that you just want to follow your desires, and ignore what God has forbidden?

We all have to live together in a community. We need each other.
We need rules. Without rules, there is chaos.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christians ask me to put my faith in Jesus. The proof and evidence are that he was born of a virgin. That he performed several healings, including bringing a couple people back to life. That he walked on water. Stopped a storm. That he was killed but later came back to life and appeared to many people and then in front of some people he ascended into the clouds.

If I believe all of that, I will have my sins forgiven and will be able to spend eternity in heaven and avoid being sent to hell. Yet, why do I doubt it? What is the proof and evidence other than the gospel stories? And does the Baha'i Faith back up those gospel stories? Especially that he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven? I don't think the Baha'i Faith does, am I correct or am I off in thinking that?

One has to search the evidence to find the facts and proofs to determine the Truth.

That is why it is provided. We all get the chance to examine it and judge, True or False.

Free will.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I see that this linked post mentions prophecy, which could be evidence of something, although you call these prophecies "icing on the cake" which might imply that they aren't the main evidence.

I do not consider them the "main evidence" because Baha'u'llah did not point to them as the evidence that supports His claims, but they might be considered good evidence for some people who put a lot of trust in the Bible. Some people say the prophecies are too vague to be useful, but that is not the case with all the prophecies, as some of them are very specific. Taken as a whole, I believe they are proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah of the latter days, and I was never even a Christian.

It seems like your main evidence, according to this post, has something to do with Baha'u'llah's character, accomplishments, and writings.

Yes, that is what Baha'u'llah wrote regarding the evidence that establishes the truth of His claims.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Perhaps we could focus on whatever you think is the strongest specific evidence that Baha'u'llah is a messenger of God. For example, could you give a specific accomplishment of his that he couldn't have achieved if he wasn't a messenger of God?

Certain atheists will disagree with me, but I do not think an ordinary man could have achieved what Baha'ullah achieved on His mission, nor do I think an ordinary man could have written the 15,000 tablets that He wrote.

God Passes By is a historical account of the mission of Baha'u'llah from 1853-1892.

Below is an excerpt from one chapter:

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred........
A certain Muḥammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.”
God Passes By. pp. 137-138

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Christians ask me to put my faith in Jesus. The proof and evidence are that he was born of a virgin. That he performed several healings, including bringing a couple people back to life. That he walked on water. Stopped a storm. That he was killed but later came back to life and appeared to many people and then in front of some people he ascended into the clouds.

If I believe all of that, I will have my sins forgiven and will be able to spend eternity in heaven and avoid being sent to hell.

That was part of the Christian indoctrination that I had been subjected to in my life. However, I had also been subjected to a number of fear-mongering tactics, such as fearing God's wrath and being told that I deserved to go to hell and be tormented and tortured for all eternity because of the sins I committed against God. When I was a Christian, I was deeply terrified of incurring God's wrath to the point of making myself physically sick, and I lived in constant fear that God would kill me at any moment if I committed sin and didn't immediately repent. Not only was I scared of God's wrath, but I also felt shame and guilt for sinning against him. I was constantly afraid of losing my salvation if I sinned against God and then died without repenting, and I truly feared going to hell even though I accepted Jesus as my lord and savior (Matthew 7:21–23). There was absolutely no peace and joy in my life that was promised in the Bible to the followers of Jesus. The fearmongering tactics that I was exposed to as a Christian had an emotionally devastating impact on my life and were detrimental to my mental health and emotional well-being. Being a Christian was a living nightmare for me.

As an ex-Christian, I've let go of these fear-based tactics, and they don't control my thoughts or my life anymore. I'm no longer afraid of being judged by God or being sent to hell. I realize and understand that all the years of negative experiences I had as a Christian are only anecdotal evidence, just as when Christians share their positive stories about having God in their lives. My point is that, after realizing that my faith and hope in God were emotional crutches and detrimental to my mental health, I finally made the decision to let it all go in order to emotionally heal and better my life. I've healed emotionally and significantly improved my life without believing in or having faith in God. I also realized that I don't need God in my life to be a moral person or to be at peace and content with life.

It was the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being. It was, without a doubt, the best decision that I've ever made for myself. It took some time for me to let go of my faith in God and heal, but forsaking my faith turned my life around for the better. I have peace and joy in my heart, and I feel content with my life. That's something that I never felt during the thirty years I was a Christian and during the years before when I prayed to God, asking him to protect me from being abused and bullied. I think my experience of letting go of my Christian beliefs is analogous to being imprisoned, except that my cell door was always open and I was unaware that I could leave whenever I wanted to. Christianity was a prison for me, and now I'm free from it.

Now that I'm no longer a Christian, I reject the Christian teachings that we transgress against God as well as the associated scare tactics, such as the fear of God's wrath, the shame and guilt trips connected with allegedly doing so, and the fear of hell for allegedly doing so and not receiving his forgiveness for these sins before we die. I was a Christian for 30 years, and as far as I'm concerned, Christianity is mainly a religion of fear, shame, and guilt trips. It's normally based on the fear of God's wrath against sin, the fear of going to hell for disobeying and sinning against God, and guilt trips and personal shame for sinning against God. There is no amount of shaming or threats of God's wrath and hellfire that Christians can hurl at me that will ever convince me to be a Christian again.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

As I have already said umpteen million times, it cannot be shown (proven) that a man is a Messenger of God.
All we have is evidence that indicates that was the case.

If we look at all the evidence and we strongly believe it, then it becomes proof to us that He was a Messenger of God.
It is at that point that we know.

No, it is at that point that you believe. Knowledge plays no part at all. Read your own post.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, it is at that point that you believe. Knowledge plays no part at all. Read your own post.

Nobody can tell me what I know vs. what I believe....
All knowledge is not factual.
I do not mean "know" in the sense of knowing what I believe as a fact, but there are other ways of knowing.
I have been down this road so many times before so I have all the definitions of know and believe but I am not going to post those all here. You can look up the definitions for yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Both of which are incredibly good reason to not believe.

They are a good reason *for you* not to believe, but they are not a good reason *for me* not to believe.

God can never be observed or proven to exist, and since I know that I have no such expectations.
I do not need to observe God, in fact I would never want to observe God even if I could, because it would be terrifying...
I do not need proof that God exists since I have *good evidence.*

What do you call someone who believes something that they acknowledge is not a fact, has no evidence for it, and yet says they have all the evidence they need?

It is absurd that God could ever be *known* as a fact, so I have no such expectation.
I have all the evidence that I need, more than enough.
Jesus Christ alone is evidence that God exists, but there are also all the other Messengers of God.

If it was a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would you say it was irrational?

Yes, I would say it is irrational if it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster, since there is NO evidence for the FSM.
But there is scads of evidence for God, in all the religions of God that have been founded throughout history.
How atheists hand-wave away all these religions is simply beyond my comprehension.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Nobody can tell me what I know vs. what I believe....
All knowledge is not factual.
I do not mean "know" in the sense of knowing what I believe as a fact, but there are other ways of knowing.
I have been down this road so many times before so I have all the definitions of know and believe but I am not going to post those all here. You can look up the definitions for yourself.

There may well be "other ways of knowing," but if you're cheque book says you have $5,000 in the bank, and your bank statement says you are overdrawn by $36.49, how do you decide whether you can buy that backyard barbecue?

 

[Ella S.]

I do not consider them the "main evidence" because Baha'u'llah did not point to them as the evidence that supports His claims, but they might be considered good evidence for some people who put a lot of trust in the Bible. Some people say the prophecies are too vague to be useful, but that is not the case with all the prophecies, as some of them are very specific. Taken as a whole, I believe they are proof that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah of the latter days, and I was never even a Christian.

Yes, that is what Baha'u'llah wrote regarding the evidence that establishes the truth of His claims.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Certain atheists will disagree with me, but I do not think an ordinary man could have achieved what Baha'ullah achieved on His mission, nor do I think an ordinary man could have written the 15,000 tablets that He wrote.

God Passes By is a historical account of the mission of Baha'u'llah from 1853-1892.

Below is an excerpt from one chapter:

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred........
A certain Muḥammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.”
God Passes By. pp. 137-138

I'm quite willing to call this evidence and I'll investigate it more thoroughly, thank you. I'm glad this thread didn't end up being a complete dead end.

I might start a new thread after processing this for a bit.

 

[F1fan]

No, that is not a good reason to disbelieve.
Everybody knows that we cannot prove that God exists .. but 50% of the population believe despite that.

You are using that argument by popularity fallacy again. It's invalid. It doesn't matter how many people anything, what matters is if they have a rational basis for their conclusion. As it is no theists decides a God exists using reason via facts. There are other, non-rational reasons believers believe. Tis is why theists fail to argue for what they believe, it isn't fact based or reasoned.

They acknowledge that this life is a test, and that they will return to their Maker.

Irrelevant. They will believe whatever their religious tradtion

..to control others?

The history of religion does support his conclusion. And religions are still used to control the masses to this day.

..or is it that you just want to follow your desires, and ignore what God has forbidden?

There is no God coming forth with rules. There are books, and middlemen to God that claim they have authority in their religious tradition. Look at how many disregard these obseilete rules. The rules in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc. are largely ignored by the humans on this planet. The people of Iran are protesting the obsolete rules by the Muslim leadership. The middlemen to God don;t seem to be winning, but they are murdering some of the protesters. Is that not forbidden by your God? Are you OK with the Islamic leadership killing people just for protesting their rule?

We all have to live together in a community. We need each other.
We need rules. Without rules, there is chaos.

Tell that to your fellow Muslims who are trying to rule Iran, and other Islamic nations, with an iron fist, as if these mortal men are God themselves. Do you support them?

 

[Trailblazer]

There may well be "other ways of knowing," but if you're cheque book says you have $5,000 in the bank, and your bank statement says you are overdrawn by $36.49, how do you decide whether you can buy that backyard barbecue?

I have never been overdrawn on my bank statement in my entire life, nor ever late paying any bill or the rent or mortgage, since I am very careful with my finances, just as I am careful with my choice of Messengers!

I have always known what was in my bank account, just as I have always known that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, ever since 1970 when I became a Baha'i. I have had my "issues" with God, but never with Baha'u'llah...

Many a night my late husband and I had "the discussion" about God and he ended up saying I should become an atheist, and I always said the same thing: "I cannot become an atheist because I believe in Baha'u'llah." One doesn't always have to "like God" in order to believe that He exists!

 

[Valjean]

I think we have different ideas of what constitutes "knowledge."

 

[Trailblazer]

This discussion was opened to present EVIDENCE for beliefs, not to hear ABOUT beliefs. You repeating what you believe means nothing for the discussion.

You can say "I believe in Santa Claus". OK, why? You respond "Well my mom told me he exists." That's not good enough. And you come back with "Well I believe he exists." We don;t care, if you are going to tell us what you believe, and your reasons are not sufficient, we don;t want to hear you repeat your beliefs. We want you to explain why your mom is correct, and so on.

I have not been talking about WHAT I believe, I have been talking about WHY I believe, because of the evidence for my beliefs.

If my reasons for believing are insufficient for you, they are. I am not going to explain why Baha'u'llah was correct, you will have to determine that for yourself, or not determine it..

Then there is no rational basis for such belief. As we see, believers don;t beliueve for factual reasons, they are for other reasons, which are not rational.

I believe in Baha'u'llah for factual reasons, since there are facts about Him that led me to believe in Him, but there are no facts about God. Truth about God comes to man only through Messengers who revealed the attributes and will of God.

And there is no fact that suggests the texts are authentic. It's more likely he invented the content.

The texts have been authenticated as written by Baha'u'llah and the originals all exist at the Baha'i World Centre in Haifa, Israel, in a protected vault.

Sure, Baha'u'llah just made all this stuff up about God since He got bored one day in prison and didn't have anything else to do, and He was hoping for a book commission.... And you all yourself rational?

That is why we reject what you believe. Why you believe he was a real messenger is something you haven't been able to articulate. You believe for some reason, but you don't seem to know what that is.

If you reject my beliefs why do you come on threads like this and continue to talk about the Baha'u'llah?

I have explained why I believe that Baha'u'llah is a real Messenger, over and over and over and over and over again, for five years on this forum. For example:

Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whatever books had been published about the Baha'i Faith at that time and I read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.

Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical.

How important are facts within your religious beliefs?​

What you do is called projection. Since you would not believe for the reasons I believe you cannot understand why I would believe. This is psych 101 stuff.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think we have different ideas of what constitutes "knowledge."

I am sure we do. There is human knowledge that comes from man's book-learning in college and then there is knowledge of God that comes to man from scriptures revealed by a Messenger of God, and these two kinds of knowledge are very different.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have never been overdrawn on my bank statement in my entire life, nor ever late paying any bill or the rent or mortgage, since I am very careful with my finances, just as I am careful with my choice of Messengers!

I have always known what was in my bank account, just as I have always known that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, ever since 1970 when I became a Baha'i. I have had my "issues" with God, but never with Baha'u'llah...

Many a night my late husband and I had "the discussion" about God and he ended up saying I should become an atheist, and I always said the same thing: "I cannot become an atheist because I believe in Baha'u'llah." One doesn't always have to "like God" in order to believe that He exists!

Well there you go! Finally, proof positive that Baha'ism is the true faith and logically unassailable! Why didn't you say so before?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I am sure we do. There is human knowledge that comes from man's book-learning in college and then there is knowledge of God that comes to man from scriptures revealed by a Messenger of God, and these two kinds of knowledge are very different.

Quite so -- radically different. One has a good chance of being true, the other a good chance of satisfying a fantasy.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

..to control others?
..or is it that you just want to follow your desires, and ignore what God has forbidden?

We all have to live together in a community. We need each other.
We need rules. Without rules, there is chaos.

We have excellent rules. We made them ourselves.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Nobody can tell me what I know vs. what I believe....
All knowledge is not factual.
I do not mean "know" in the sense of knowing what I believe as a fact, but there are other ways of knowing.
I have been down this road so many times before so I have all the definitions of know and believe but I am not going to post those all here. You can look up the definitions for yourself.

Tell me something that you KNOW that is not factual. And then explain how, though it is not a fact, that you know it.

 

[F1fan]

I have not been talking about WHAT I believe, I have been talking about WHY I believe, because of the evidence for my beliefs.

Your evidence is built on assumptions, not facts. You admit to not having good evidence for your beliefs, so what is there to even post about? Your intent must be to show us how weak your evidence is to decide that your religious beliefs are true, and that's something no rational person would be proud to admit.

If my reasons for believing are insufficient for you, they are.

This isn;t coke versis pepsi, this is about whether concepts are true or likley true. This means the STANDARD that people apply to examine and assess concepts is crucial. Your standard is biased and low, and that is why you allow yourself to conclude weak evidence is substantial enough to judge fantastic concepts are true. The standard of critical thinkers is very high, and we don't bias towards some outcome. The reasons you offer are insufficient for thinkers with the normal, high standard of evidence.

I am not going to explain why Baha'u'llah was correct, you will have to determine that for yourself, or not determine it..

Note that proper reasoning with a high standard would consider why Baha'u'llah isn't correct. He gets things wrong in his texts, and what he does write isn't anything a person from that era could invent.

I believe in Baha'u'llah for factual reasons, since there are facts about Him that led me to believe in Him, but there are no facts about God.

You don't need to believe in Baha'u'llah if he actually lived. It's a fact he was a real person. We don' t believe in facts, we know facts are true.

Truth about God comes to man only through Messengers who revealed the attributes and will of God

Then Truth isn't factual. So using the word "Truth" is misleading.

Your words "Truth about God comes to man only through Messengers" "but there are no facts about God".

The texts have been authenticated as written by Baha'u'llah and the originals all exist at the Baha'i World Centre in Haifa, Israel, in a protected vault.

Who authenticated them? Does this mean they were actually written by Baha'u'llah, but not they they are true?

Sure, Baha'u'llah just made all this stuff up about God since He got bored one day in prison and didn't have anything else to do, and He was hoping for a book commission.... And you all yourself rational?

Don't rule out that he could be mentally ill. No rational person believes what a person says just because they say so. On top of that these are rather fantastic claims, so they need extraordinary evidence. There is none, as you admit. We critical thinkers aren't guillible fools seeking emotional comfort.

If you reject my beliefs why do you come on threads like this and continue to talk about the Baha'u'llah?

Your beliefs are not based on facts, that is why they are rejected.

I have explained why I believe that Baha'u'llah is a real Messenger, over and over and over and over and over again, for five years on this forum. For example:

Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whatever books had been published about the Baha'i Faith at that time and I read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.

Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical.

How important are facts within your religious beliefs?​

Yet you admit there is a lack of facts. Do you not see the contradiction with your recent testimony and what you write here, that you used to value facts?

Of course this quote doesn't reveal any facts, so was it mistaken? You've changed your tune since then.

What you do is called projection. Since you would not believe for the reasons I believe you cannot understand why I would believe. This is psych 101 stuff.

That isn't projection. I suggest even you dont understand why you believe, as above you claim to have valued facts for belief in your beliefs, but there aren't any relevant facts to suport the belief you have about the suvernatural bits. It's seems you are using baha'u'llah as a proxy for your personal belief, as if to say you believe in God because Baha'u'llah wrote about one that he claimed to speak for. Your religious behavior is quite unusual, perhaps designed by Rube Goldberg.

 

[We Never Know]

Your evidence is built on assumptions, not facts. You admit to not having good evidence for your beliefs, so what is there to even post about? Your intent must be to show us how weak your evidence is to decide that your religious beliefs are true, and that's something no rational person would be proud to admit.


This isn;t coke versis pepsi, this is about whether concepts are true or likley true. This means the STANDARD that people apply to examine and assess concepts is crucial. Your standard is biased and low, and that is why you allow yourself to conclude weak evidence is substantial enough to judge fantastic concepts are true. The standard of critical thinkers is very high, and we don't bias towards some outcome. The reasons you offer are insufficient for thinkers with the normal, high standard of evidence.


Note that proper reasoning with a high standard would consider why Baha'u'llah isn't correct. He gets things wrong in his texts, and what he does write isn't anything a person from that era could invent.


You don't need to believe in Baha'u'llah if he actually lived. It's a fact he was a real person. We don' t believe in facts, we know facts are true.


Then Truth isn't factual. So using the word "Truth" is misleading.

Your words "Truth about God comes to man only through Messengers" "but there are no facts about God".


Who authenticated them? Does this mean they were actually written by Baha'u'llah, but not they they are true?


Don't rule out that he could be mentally ill. No rational person believes what a person says just because they say so. On top of that these are rather fantastic claims, so they need extraordinary evidence. There is none, as you admit. We critical thinkers aren't guillible fools seeking emotional comfort.


Your beliefs are not based on facts, that is why they are rejected.


Yet you admit there is a lack of facts. Do you not see the contradiction with your recent testimony and what you write here, that you used to value facts?

Of course this quote doesn't reveal any facts, so was it mistaken? You've changed your tune since then.


That isn't projection. I suggest even you dont understand why you believe, as above you claim to have valued facts for belief in your beliefs, but there aren't any relevant facts to suport the belief you have about the suvernatural bits. It's seems you are using baha'u'llah as a proxy for your personal belief, as if to say you believe in God because Baha'u'llah wrote about one that he claimed to speak for. Your religious behavior is quite unusual, perhaps designed by Rube Goldberg.

Do you not understand its evidence for "them"!

Its not about you or what you accept. Its about them and what they accept.