Evidence

[We Never Know]

Neither of you, per se. Though if a winner has to be picked, it should be by the observers of the argument of you two.

"it should be by the observers of the argument of you too"

Explain

 

[CG Didymus]

That was part of the Christian indoctrination that I had been subjected to in my life. However, I had also been subjected to a number of fear-mongering tactics, such as fearing God's wrath and being told that I deserved to go to hell and be tormented and tortured for all eternity because of the sins I committed against God. When I was a Christian, I was deeply terrified of incurring God's wrath to the point of making myself physically sick, and I lived in constant fear that God would kill me at any moment if I committed sin and didn't immediately repent. Not only was I scared of God's wrath, but I also felt shame and guilt for sinning against him. I was constantly afraid of losing my salvation if I sinned against God and then died without repenting, and I truly feared going to hell even though I accepted Jesus as my lord and savior (Matthew 7:21–23). There was absolutely no peace and joy in my life that was promised in the Bible to the followers of Jesus. The fearmongering tactics that I was exposed to as a Christian had an emotionally devastating impact on my life and were detrimental to my mental health and emotional well-being. Being a Christian was a living nightmare for me.

As an ex-Christian, I've let go of these fear-based tactics, and they don't control my thoughts or my life anymore. I'm no longer afraid of being judged by God or being sent to hell. I realize and understand that all the years of negative experiences I had as a Christian are only anecdotal evidence, just as when Christians share their positive stories about having God in their lives. My point is that, after realizing that my faith and hope in God were emotional crutches and detrimental to my mental health, I finally made the decision to let it all go in order to emotionally heal and better my life. I've healed emotionally and significantly improved my life without believing in or having faith in God. I also realized that I don't need God in my life to be a moral person or to be at peace and content with life.

It was the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being. It was, without a doubt, the best decision that I've ever made for myself. It took some time for me to let go of my faith in God and heal, but forsaking my faith turned my life around for the better. I have peace and joy in my heart, and I feel content with my life. That's something that I never felt during the thirty years I was a Christian and during the years before when I prayed to God, asking him to protect me from being abused and bullied. I think my experience of letting go of my Christian beliefs is analogous to being imprisoned, except that my cell door was always open and I was unaware that I could leave whenever I wanted to. Christianity was a prison for me, and now I'm free from it.

Now that I'm no longer a Christian, I reject the Christian teachings that we transgress against God as well as the associated scare tactics, such as the fear of God's wrath, the shame and guilt trips connected with allegedly doing so, and the fear of hell for allegedly doing so and not receiving his forgiveness for these sins before we die. I was a Christian for 30 years, and as far as I'm concerned, Christianity is mainly a religion of fear, shame, and guilt trips. It's normally based on the fear of God's wrath against sin, the fear of going to hell for disobeying and sinning against God, and guilt trips and personal shame for sinning against God. There is no amount of shaming or threats of God's wrath and hellfire that Christians can hurl at me that will ever convince me to be a Christian again.

It's sad, but I think those kinds of hellfire Christians do have enough Bible verses to back up their beliefs. What it does for some of us is to cause us to reject it. But is Islam or the Baha'i Faith any better? I think all organized religions use guilt and fear to keep people believing. At least the Baha'i Faith has done away with hell and Satan. I hope they are right about that.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

"it should be by the observers of the argument of you too"

Explain

If you and @John53 have a debate or argument, it is generally understood that the winner of an argument in debate is determined by the crowd.

Doesn't mean the crowd chose that which is factual, necessarily. Just means the crowd determined the winner.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tell me something that you KNOW that is not factual. And then explain how, though it is not a fact, that you know it.

Easy peasy, even though I am dead tired given I got very few hours of sleep last night.
I know that God exists because God has sent Messengers to tell me that.

 

[We Never Know]

The thread is about that. According you you she is just making "So what?" arguments. Even if she is right it makes no difference. And of course she has at times tried to claim that their is evidence for her beliefs, and by context she did not mean just "evidence for her".

"According you you she is just making "So what" arguments"

BS! She is stating what she believes for herself. She is not telling you to be like her or you have to accept her beliefs. She is sharing her beliefs. You are attacking her for sharing her beliefs.
There is a difference.

 

[We Never Know]

If you and @John53 have a debate or argument, it is generally understood that the winner if an argument in debate is determined by the crowd.

Doesn't mean the crowd chose that which is factual, necessarily. Just means the crowd determined the winner.

So majority rules??

I that case gods are real because more believe in a god than not.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are tens of thousands claiming to be messengers of God. I met several of them during my psych rotation at Sheppard Pratt hospital, in fact.
If their claims were consistent I might give them some weight, but they are not. A dozen prophets all making conflicting claims can't all be right.

Why would you believe they are Messengers of God just because they made a claim?
Did they have any evidence to back up their claims?

 

[F1fan]

You didn't answer my question....

What is beautiful to me may be ugly to you.
Which one of us is right?

You are referring to aesthetics here. This doesn't represent the nature of this debate, which is what constitutes adequate evidence to make sound conclusions.

 

[John53]

"According you you she is just making "So what" arguments"

BS! She is stating what she believes for herself. She is not telling you to be like her or you have to accept her beliefs. She is sharing her beliefs. You are attacking her for sharing her beliefs.
There is a difference.

People are allowed to disagree in a debate.

 

[We Never Know]

I answered. Exactly why people debate.... maybe I should have put that's after exactly.

I asked...."What is beautiful to me may be ugly to you.
Which one of us is right?

You replied... "Exactly why people debate and all sides are are able to have their say. Freedom of speech"

So freedom of speech is your answer?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

People are allowed to disagree in a debate.

I agree. And if you face off against a particularly good or relentless debater, they'll even sometimes drive their point home.

 

[Valjean]

You didn't answer my question....

What is beautiful to me may be ugly to you.
Which one of us is right?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Truth is derived from mathematical analysis (logic) of objective facts. Truth is the same for everyone, though some may misperceive it.

 

[John53]

I asked...."What is beautiful to me may be ugly to you.
Which one of us is right?

You replied... "Exactly why people debate and all sides are are able to have their say. Freedom of speech"

So freedom of speech is your answer?

Yup. You are free to to say it's ugly, beautiful or anything in between.

 

[We Never Know]

You are referring to aesthetics here. This doesn't represent the nature of this debate, which is what constitutes adequate evidence to make sound conclusions.

It is up to the person as to what they see and accept... It is not up to you to tell them what you think they should see or accept because you disagree.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Posting this in case it's helpful:

"Debate is a process that involves formal discourse on a particular topic, often including a moderator and audience. In a debate, arguments are put forward for often opposing viewpoints. Debates have historically occurred in public meetings, academic institutions, debate halls, coffeehouses, competitions, and legislative assemblies.[1] Debate has also been conducted for educational and recreational purposes,[2] usually associated with educational establishments and debating societies.[3] These debates put an emphasis upon logical consistency, factual accuracy, and emotional appeal to an audience.[citation needed] Modern forms of competitive debate also include rules for participants to discuss and decide upon the framework of the debate (how the debate will be judged)."

From:

Debate - Wikipedia

 

[We Never Know]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Truth is derived from mathematical analysis (logic) of objective facts. Truth is the same for everyone, though some may misperceive it.

Ok. Let say you think blue is the best color.
I disagree with how you see colors and say its red.

Using mathmatics, tell me which of us is right

 

[We Never Know]

Yup. You are free to to say it's ugly, beautiful or anything in between.

Cool! So why can't someone believe in a god, for theirself, without being attacked?

 

[CG Didymus]

Argument from ignorance?I believe Baha'u'llah said that when there was a conflict between science and religion, to go with the science. Sounds like reasonable advice.

I don't know if they meant that to be taken literally.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Posting this in case it's helpful:

"Debate is a process that involves formal discourse on a particular topic, often including a moderator and audience. In a debate, arguments are put forward for often opposing viewpoints. Debates have historically occurred in public meetings, academic institutions, debate halls, coffeehouses, competitions, and legislative assemblies.[1] Debate has also been conducted for educational and recreational purposes,[2] usually associated with educational establishments and debating societies.[3] These debates put an emphasis upon logical consistency, factual accuracy, and emotional appeal to an audience.[citation needed] Modern forms of competitive debate also include rules for participants to discuss and decide upon the framework of the debate (how the debate will be judged)."

From:

Debate - Wikipedia

I should add that on forums, there's often no debate moderator (not to be confused with a forum moderator), however if you get a particularly knowledgeable OP, who doesn't want to take hard sides, sometimes they'll jump in and try to act as the debate moderator. It's something I've seen sometimes.

 

[John53]

Cool! So why can't someone believe in a god, for theirself, without being attacked?

They're not being attacked, they're being debated. It's a debate forum. It's not a post something and everybody agrees forum.