Evidence?

[rojse]

Please, enlighten the rest of us ignorant masses with your proof for this statement.

If anyone who was religious had undeniable proof that God existed, they would tell tell every single person about it. There are plenty of people that try to convert others through the word of the Bible and so forth, imagine how much more potent an actual proof would be, and how much undeniable proof would make even the most tolerant religious person thoughtful about spreading their proof.

I'll put it this way. Supposing that you had undeniable proof that God existed, that could not be argued with or disputed. How long would it take you to tell someone else?

 

[Storm]

If anyone who was religious had undeniable proof that God existed, they would tell tell every single person about it. There are plenty of people that try to convert others through the word of the Bible and so forth, imagine how much more potent an actual proof would be, and how much undeniable proof would make even the most tolerant religious person thoughtful about spreading their proof.

I'll put it this way. Supposing that you had undeniable proof that God existed, that could not be argued with or disputed. How long would it take you to tell someone else?

I agree with you, but it's quite a leap to get from your position to logician's. Perhaps I'm misreading him, but it seems to me that he's saying no such evidence will EVER be found.

 

[rojse]

I would assume that when he says "no evidence out there", he means at this present point of time.

 

[Storm]

Well, I hope you're right.

 

[Apex]

I agree with you, but it's quite a leap to get from your position to logician's. Perhaps I'm misreading him, but it seems to me that he's saying no such evidence will EVER be found.

Thats the impression I got as well.

 

[Storm]

Rereading, though, I see rojse's interpretation as well. I guess we'll just have to wait for him to come back and clear it up.

 

[Nessa]

2) What evidence of God's existence could there be? You say that evidence would convince you, but what would qualify?

There has been so much suffering that it is difficult to reconcile with an omni-creating-god. During my lifetime 30,000 to 50,000 people die each and every day due to starvation or water-borne disease. And people around the world are (have been) praying for intervention.

Birth defects can be heart-breaking and extremely difficult to live with. Science is on the verge of making some real progress with stem cells and genetic markers. It seems peculiar to me that science can improve on an all-omni creation.


Those are two of the thoughts that linger in my mind when trying to see evidence of a god.

 

[Storm]

There has been so much suffering that it is difficult to reconcile with an omni-creating-god. During my lifetime 30,000 to 50,000 people die each and every day due to starvation or water-borne disease. And people around the world are (have been) praying for intervention.

Birth defects can be heart-breaking and extremely difficult to live with. Science is on the verge of making some real progress with stem cells and genetic markers. It seems peculiar to me that science can improve on an all-omni creation.


Those are two of the thoughts that linger in my mind when trying to see evidence of a god.

I sympathize, but I'm having trouble seeing how it relates to the OP. Perhaps you could clarify?

 

[Nessa]

I sympathize, but I'm having trouble seeing how it relates to the OP. Perhaps you could clarify?

For a god to stop the suffering of his creation.

 

[Storm]

What if suffering is necessary?

 

[Nessa]

What if suffering is necessary?

A lil' over half of the 30,000 to 50,000 that die a day from starvation are very young children. Why would an omni-creator allow their birth so they could suffer and die a short time later.

 

[darkendless]

What if suffering is necessary?

If it is then why are Christians/Muslims and every other faith portraying god as the saviour full of love and happiness? Should we be happy that today we are not one of the 30000 and love him for his "overwhelming generosity" in letting us live out the day free of wrath?
I wouldn't want to believe in something that promoted suffering on a grand scale, would you?

 

[Storm]

A lil' over half of the 30,000 to 50,000 that die a day from starvation are very young children. Why would an an omni-creator allow their birth so they could suffer and die a short time later.

1) Nessa, let me apologize. I didn't start this thread to debate people's answers, just to hear them. So, really, my response was inappropriate. :sorry1:

2) We're getting into theodicy, which fascinates me, and I have several theories - one even for the omnimax Creator in Whom I do not believe - that I think work. Perhaps you'd like to discuss them elsewhere?

3) While your answer is perfectly valid, it's not quite what I'm looking for. Theodicy is a moral/ theological issue; I'm asking about scientific evidence. You're not quite off-topic, but you are presupposing theology (God is benevolent) that I was hoping to avoid.

 

[Storm]

If it is then why are Christians/Muslims and every other faith portraying god as the saviour full of love and happiness? Should we be happy that today we are not one of the 30000 and love him for his "overwhelming generosity" in letting us live out the day free of wrath?
I wouldn't want to believe in something that promoted suffering on a grand scale, would you?

See point 2 of the above post.

 

[UnTheist]

Simple observation.

 

[Nessa]

1) Nessa, let me apologize. I didn't start this thread to debate people's answers, just to hear them. So, really, my response was inappropriate. :sorry1:

2) We're getting into theodicy, which fascinates me, and I have several theories - one even for the omnimax Creator in Whom I do not believe - that I think work. Perhaps you'd like to discuss them elsewhere?

3) While your answer is perfectly valid, it's not quite what I'm looking for. Theodicy is a moral/ theological issue; I'm asking about scientific evidence. You're not quite off-topic, but you are presupposing theology (God is benevolent) that I was hoping to avoid.

I was raised as a Christian and have pursued the truth. I've studied the Bible. the Canon, and the history of Christianity. I'm not wanting to reconcile a "desired truth" but merely want to find the truth. That's partially why I'm here and eventually, I will probably start some threads dealing with my personal feelings and emotions.

No problem on this thread, I understand.

 

[.lava]

Creator creates. therefor there is creation. wouldn't creation itself be enough as evidence? whatelse could there be (as evidence) other than creation?



.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Creator creates. therefor there is creation. wouldn't creation itself be enough as evidence? whatelse could there be (as evidence) other than creation?.

From a strictly logical approach, that is begging the question.

 

[Storm]

Creator creates. therefor there is creation. wouldn't creation itself be enough as evidence? whatelse could there be (as evidence) other than creation?

Not when there are naturalistic explanations, no.

From a strictly logical approach, that is begging the question.

I was gonna go with circular reasoning.

 

[.lava]

Not when there are naturalistic explanations, no.

there is nothing we know in this creation without end & beginning. if i did not believe in God, that would confuse me very much. where was i before i was born? how did i get here? why am i me? why am i aware of myself? why am i able to think of a creator? what's all of these thoughts for?



.