Evil

[Spartan]

Nonetheless, if the choices are known in advance, whether god decided them or just knew of them, they were set in stone.

That's right. Once a person chooses something of their own free will, God lets the universe go forward and they take their choices to the grave with them.

 

[Spartan]

Calamities happen to everyone. Even if there was a positive outcome down the road in some cases, it is still a calamity and a calamity is synonymous with evil.

It's not much of a calamity when the result is a person winding up in heaven because they repented and received Christ, instead of winding up in hell. That's a blessing in disguise.

 

[Jos]

That's right. Once a person chooses something of their own free will, God lets the universe go forward and they take their choices to the grave with them.

So you're just gonna ignore my previous post about God intervening to stop evil? Why give humans free will and intervene to stop evil if He wanted us to use it completely without His intervention?

 

[sayak83]

What are your thoughts/ Do you think is evil the corruption of something good which already exists?


What is evil?

Evil is not something that has an existence of its own; rather it is a corruption of that which already exists. EVIL IS THE ABSENCE OR PRIVATION OF SOMETHING GOOD. Rot, for example, can only exist as long as the tree exists. Tooth decay can only exist as long as the tooth exists. Rust on a car and a decaying carcass illustrate the same point. Evil exists as a corruption of something good; it is a privation and does not have essence by itself. Norman Geisler tells us, "Evil is like a wound in an arm or moth-holes in a garment. It exists only in another but not in itself."
Notes on the Problem of Evil, by Ron Rhodes

Evil and good are both subjective properties. Concept of essence for either is illogical.

 

[Spartan]

Evil and good are both subjective properties. Concept of essence for either is illogical.

God's moral laws are OBJECTIVE. They are from an outside, divine source. They are now for all people at all times in all places. Man's moral laws (apart from God) are subjective. They change over time and over cultures (prohibition, cannibalism, gay marriage) like people change their socks. There is little that is enduring in man's subjective morality.

 

[Jos]

God's moral laws are OBJECTIVE. They are from an outside, divine source. They are now for all people at all times in all places. Man's moral laws (apart from God) are subjective. They change over time and over cultures (prohibition, cannibalism, gay marriage) like people change their socks. There is little that is enduring in man's subjective morality.

Will you please answer my question?:

Why give humans free will and intervene to stop evil if He wanted us to use it completely without His intervention?

 

[sayak83]

God's moral laws are OBJECTIVE. They are from an outside, divine source. They are now for all people at all times in all places. Man's moral laws (apart from God) are subjective. They change over time and over cultures (prohibition, cannibalism, gay marriage) like people change their socks. There is little that is enduring in man's subjective morality.

Subjective and objective have little do with whether it changes with time or not. Get your terms correct,

Universal vs Relative (whether a property is context dependent or not)
Timeless vs Temporal (whether a property is time dependent or time independent)
Subjective vs Objective (whether a property is dependent on the existence of beings who experience things, i.e. a subject. or not)

Good and evil are event properties that are subjective by definition, because they can't exist in the absence of a subject who is experiencing these events...unlike say the mass of an electron.

Eg:- A volcanic eruption in Mars is neither good nor evil as there are no subjects to experience the eruption as such.

Finally, a God's subjective assessments of good and evil are entirely His or Her own and have no apriori claim of preference over the subjective assessment of any other experiencing entity...like a mouse for instance. This is obvious to anyone who thinks for two minutes.

 

[Spartan]

Subjective and objective have little do with whether it changes with time or not. Get your terms correct

I've got them correct. God's moral laws are OBJECTIVE. They come from God alone.

Finally, a God's subjective assessments of good and evil are entirely His or Her own and have no apriori claim of preference over the subjective assessment of any other experiencing entity...like a mouse for instance. This is obvious to anyone who thinks for two minutes.

Ha. Wait until the subjective, non-repenting fornicator, adulterer, and gay sex crowd drops down into Hell. Then they'll understand whose moral laws matter.

 

[Spartan]

Will you please answer my question?:

God desires that we use free will according to his will. If everyone did that God wouldn't have to intervene.

 

[EtuMalku]

Plato had it right and there is no need for a god or religion to dictate morality or ethics. It's called Eudaemonism and mandates that morality and ethics is the self-realization of personal happiness and personal well-being. This indeed is a subjective experience for it will almost always entail something good for one person and bad for another, and will change throughout eras of time, various civilizations and cultures.

 

[EtuMalku]

God desires that we use free will according to his will. If everyone did that God wouldn't have to intervene.

How can it be free will if it's according to god'swill?

 

[RESOLUTION]

There are many reasons

Being morally perfect would mean that you always make the right decisions.

Right, since they didn't know good from evil as yet, they wouldn't have known that eating from the tree of life was good and that eating from the other tree was a bad thing to do.

They had free will but they wouldn't have known that it was wrong to disobey since they didn't have knowledge of good and evil as yet.

Explain what morally perfect is.

Does sex before marriage and the decision not to have sex before marriage make you morally perfect in your decision?

There is the problem, if morality makes you make the right decisions then why are so many people believing different things about what is moral and what is not?
Do you believe morally it is okay to have sex before marriage? There is the lesson that morality does not mean you always make the right decision because morality like good and evil
is different for believers and none believers. So it is illogical to assume that the first man and woman were morally perfect because morality for them means being one flesh sex was allowed they did not require to be married. I see no basis in your argument that being morally perfect would mean you always make the right decision as there is difference in opinions as to what is "Morally Perfect."

 

[sayak83]

I've got them correct. God's moral laws are OBJECTIVE. They come from God alone.



Ha. Wait until the subjective, non-repenting fornicator, adulterer, and gay sex crowd drops down into Hell. Then they'll understand whose moral laws matter.

 

[Jos]

God desires that we use free will according to his will. If everyone did that God wouldn't have to intervene.

But you said previously that God doesn't intervene and allows us to use our free will unchecked because we have to make our own choices and live with the consequences? So which is it? Does He or does He not intervene?

 

[Shantanu]

But you said previously that God doesn't intervene and allows us to use our free will unchecked because we have to make our own choices and live with the consequences? So which is it? Does He or does He not intervene?

He intervenes: I have forced Him to come clean on that. He resides within me and listens to my plea for clarification on what is real and what is unreal. Evil is real.

 

[Jos]

Explain what morally perfect is.

Does sex before marriage and the decision not to have sex before marriage make you morally perfect in your decision?

There is the problem, if morality makes you make the right decisions then why are so many people believing different things about what is moral and what is not?
Do you believe morally it is okay to have sex before marriage? There is the lesson that morality does not mean you always make the right decision because morality like good and evil
is different for believers and none believers. So it is illogical to assume that the first man and woman were morally perfect because morality for them means being one flesh sex was allowed they did not require to be married. I see no basis in your argument that being morally perfect would mean you always make the right decision as there is difference in opinions as to what is "Morally Perfect."

Christians argue that God is the standard and model for moral perfection and they also argue that God can't do evil and always does the right thing because there is no corruption or character flaw in Him. So according to your worldview, assuming your a Christian, yes there is such a thing as moral perfection ie. God and He always does the right thing. Don't you affirm that God's nature is the perfect, objective standard for morality and that it doesn't matter whether humans agree or disagree on morality since God's perfect standard is what matters?

 

[Jos]

He intervenes: I have forced Him to come clean on that. He resides within me and listens to my plea for clarification on what is real and what is unreal. Evil is real.

Well you and the other guy disagree on who or what is God. So I can't really verify who has the right God....

 

[Shantanu]

Well you and the other guy disagree on who or what is God. So I can't really verify who has the right God....

He has guided me on how to tackle evil from within me, so there I have proof that He sorts out injustices and evil perpetrators.

 

[Jos]

He has guided me on how to tackle evil from within me, so there I have proof that He sorts out injustices and evil perpetrators.

I understand that but you and the other guy I was talking to disagree about who or what God actually is so I can't be sure who is right.

 

[Shantanu]

I understand that but you and the other guy I was talking to disagree about who or what God actually is so I can't be sure who is right.

I am just a simple Theist who has experienced God in my personal life of having being subjected to intense persecution and surviving it through God's help to live freely in the State of the United Kingdom without fear that I would be harmed again by the State authorities.