Evil

[Spartan]

But you said previously that God doesn't intervene and allows us to use our free will unchecked because we have to make our own choices and live with the consequences? So which is it? Does He or does He not intervene?

The hypothetical was if men all acted according to God's will then it's not likely he would intervene. In the real world he sometimes does, when men and/or nations get too far out of control. So, mankind does have free will but on rare occasions God steps in - ala Sodom and Gomorrah - to put an end to debauchery or rebellion. But even then men go to their graves owning what they've done.

 

[Jos]

The hypothetical was if men all acted according to God's will then it's not likely he would intervene. In the real world he sometimes does, when men and/or nations get too far out of control. So, mankind does have free will but on rare occasions God steps in - ala Sodom and Gomorrah - to put an end to debauchery or rebellion. But even then men go to their graves owning what they've done.

So why does He inconsistently stop evil at certain times but doesn't stop it at other times? I thought He was supposed to just everything to play out and not intervene at all even if it gets too far? Don't you guys always say that if He intervenes to stop evil then He wouldn't be loving since love requires freedom and stopping a person from committing evil would not be loving to the person who commits the evil?

 

[Spartan]

So why does He inconsistently stop evil at certain times but doesn't stop it at other times? I thought He was supposed to just everything to play out and not intervene at all even if it gets too far? Don't you guys always say that if He intervenes to stop evil then He wouldn't be loving since love requires freedom and stopping a person from committing evil would not be loving to the person who commits the evil?

So, you'd prefer he let the world turn into a real nasty hell-hole instead? Then you'd be asking, "Where is God?"

 

[Jos]

So, you'd prefer he let the world turn into a real nasty hell-hole instead? Then you'd be asking, "Where is God?"

I would really like for a God to intervene and stop all the evil but you guys keep saying that God has to allow people to do evil because restricting their free will wouldn't be a loving thing to do. So if it were up to me, yes, I would like a God to intervene and stop all evil even if it includes restricting my free will.

 

[Spartan]

I would really like for a God to intervene and stop all the evil but you guys keep saying that God has to allow people to do evil because restricting their free will wouldn't be a loving thing to do. So if it were up to me, yes, I would like a God to intervene and stop all evil even if it includes restricting my free will.

God will do just that. Read the Book of Revelation.

 

[Jos]

God will do just that. Read the Book of Revelation.

Why can't He do that now? Why is He stopping some evil but not all evil?

 

[Spartan]

Why can't He do that now? Why is He stopping some evil but not all evil?

He's giving the devil and mankind a determined amount of time to make their case against God. Plus, God is allowing the time so millions of new believers can be saved to spend eternity with him. Finally, the Gospel of Jesus Christ must be preached unto all the world for a witness, and then the end will come (Matthew 24:14).

Have you ever read the Bible? The answers to all these questions you ask are in it.

 

[ManSinha]

Have you ever read the Bible? The answers to all these questions you ask are in it.

No they are not - or if they are - scores of individuals over the ages have disagreed - for example - the list of how many times the "end days" out of the Book of Revelation have been predicted is legion. It has yet to happen.

While you are at it - if you know the Bible has all the answers - then what is your understanding of the timing of the day of judgment and the end days to finally be here?

 

[Spartan]

No they are not - or if they are - scores of individuals over the ages have disagreed - for example - the list of how many times the "end days" out of the Book of Revelation have been predicted is legion. It has yet to happen.

Then you and those "scores of individuals" don't understand the end times. There's a number of signs and things that have to happen before the end comes. Here's just two of them:

1. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has to be preached unto all nations first. That is still in progress.
2. The third Jewish Temple has to be built before the end. Note what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15.

If you and those "scores of individuals" really understood the Bible why did you miss those two?

While you are at it - if you know the Bible has all the answers - then what is your understanding of the timing of the day of judgment and the end days to finally be here?

That would require a sort of dissertation, and space and time prohibit that here. But watch for the building of the Third Temple, and the hell that follows thereafter. That's your clue.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What are your thoughts/ Do you think is evil the corruption of something good which already exists?


What is evil?

Evil is not something that has an existence of its own; rather it is a corruption of that which already exists. EVIL IS THE ABSENCE OR PRIVATION OF SOMETHING GOOD. Rot, for example, can only exist as long as the tree exists. Tooth decay can only exist as long as the tooth exists. Rust on a car and a decaying carcass illustrate the same point. Evil exists as a corruption of something good; it is a privation and does not have essence by itself. Norman Geisler tells us, "Evil is like a wound in an arm or moth-holes in a garment. It exists only in another but not in itself."
Notes on the Problem of Evil, by Ron Rhodes

I don't really have a set opinion. I've heard three ideas.

The standard idea is that evil is simply going against God's wishes, for example by breaking whatever set of laws apply to you.

The second idea is that evil is the absence of good, as you have already noted. An analogy would be that dark doesn't actually exist, but is the absence of light.

The third idea is that evil is the corruption of good. I believe it was CS Lewis that proposed this--that evil is good actions but done in the wrong way, or at the wrong time, or with the wrong person, or in the wrong place.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Hi Jos

Christians argue that God is the standard and model for moral perfection and they also argue that God can't do evil and always does the right thing because there is no corruption or character flaw in Him.

Where God resides in highest heaven and the heavenly host there is no evil there is no harm and no imperfection.
Why would God need to do evil? I personally do not see that a Christian would argue the above.
As for his character the bible itself suggests God has prefect knowledge and perfect judgment so he can judge rightly all things. The only problem with humans is seeing God as human.
You see Gods character has no flaws but God isn't a character he is a Spirit and he is perfect in knowledge of right and wrong. We cannot escape the fact that right and wrong or Good and Evil exist. If someone walked into your home with a gun and was about to kill your family would you kill them first if you had a gun?

Unlike us, God tells the end from the beginning. He sees all things and a thousand years is like a day to him. How do you judge the person called God, the perfect person by human standards?
I would suggest reading up on God and his character and ask yourself where would we be if he had not been there to ensure humanity survived.

So according to your worldview, assuming your a Christian, yes there is such a thing as moral perfection ie. God and He always does the right thing. Don't you affirm that God's nature is the perfect, objective standard for morality and that it doesn't matter whether humans agree or disagree on morality since God's perfect standard is what matters?

Belief in God is not about the world or the moral standards as these are nothing to do with the relationship a person has with God.The World is corrupt and has been since the fall but humans like yourself can always choose what they want to do. WORLDVIEW... how would you summarise this?
Wiki suggests
A world view or worldview is the fundamental cognitive orientation of an individual or society encompassing the whole of the individual's or society's knowledge and point of view. A world viewcan include natural philosophy; fundamental, existential, and normative postulates; or themes, values, emotions, and ethics.

believers are a new creation no longer born of the things of this world. They live for God in this world and they do the good things and do not harm others.
So it is a heavenly view not a world view a believer would have.

 

[Jos]

He's giving the devil and mankind a determined amount of time to make their case against God. Plus, God is allowing the time so millions of new believers can be saved to spend eternity with him. Finally, the Gospel of Jesus Christ must be preached unto all the world for a witness, and then the end will come (Matthew 24:14).

Have you ever read the Bible? The answers to all these questions you ask are in it.

Yes I have read the Bible and this whole allowing humans to make a case against Him doesn't make sense in light of the fact that He's all-knowing and knows what's gonna happen anyway.

 

[Jos]

Why would God need to do evil?

So God can't choose to do evil? Evil isn't even an option for Him?

As for his character the bible itself suggests God has prefect knowledge and perfect judgment so he can judge rightly all things. The only problem with humans is seeing God as human.
You see Gods character has no flaws but God isn't a character he is a Spirit and he is perfect in knowledge of right and wrong. We cannot escape the fact that right and wrong or Good and Evil exist. If someone walked into your home with a gun and was about to kill your family would you kill them first if you had a gun?

If God is a subject and He or His nature or whatever determines what's moral then morality would still be subjective.

Unlike us, God tells the end from the beginning. He sees all things and a thousand years is like a day to him. How do you judge the person called God, the perfect person by human standards?

Christians do all the time when they judge Him as being good.

Belief in God is not about the world or the moral standards as these are nothing to do with the relationship a person has with God.The World is corrupt and has been since the fall but humans like yourself can always choose what they want to do. WORLDVIEW... how would you summarise this?

You're the one who originally brought up morality now you want to switch to talking about worldviews... anyways, these are all just assertions with nothing backing them up and history and science don't support your claim that the world was perfect and then fell.

 

[Spartan]

Yes I have read the Bible and this whole allowing humans to make a case against Him doesn't make sense in light of the fact that He's all-knowing and knows what's gonna happen anyway.

He knows who will reject Jesus Christ and drop down into Hell (John 3:36; Revelation 21:8) also, but he didn't make their decisions for them. They did. If people drop down into Hell it will be because of their own free-will choices.

 

[Jos]

He knows who will reject Jesus Christ and drop down into Hell (John 3:36; Revelation 21:8) also, but he didn't make their decisions for them. They did. If people drop down into Hell it will be because of their own free-will choices.

I'm not sure one can choose to believe that Jesus died for their sins... it's either you're convinced that He did or you're not based on the evidence you've been presented and if you don't find the evidence presented to be compelling then that's not your fault. I, for example, can't just freely will myself to believe in Bigfoot unless I've been presented good evidence for His existence.

 

[Spartan]

I'm not sure one can choose to believe that Jesus died for their sins... it's either you're convinced that He did or you're not based on the evidence you've been presented and if you don't find the evidence presented to be compelling then that's not your fault. I, for example, can't just freely will myself to believe in Bigfoot unless I've been presented good evidence for His existence.

Bigfoot? Like our professor in college noted, there have been no skeletons or piles of Bigfoot scat ever documented.

But the life of Jesus has multiple, independent, historical confirmations, including over 40 Biblical and non-Biblical writings within 150 years of his life.

 

[Jos]

But the life of Jesus has multiple, independent, historical confirmations, including over 40 Biblical and non-Biblical writings within 150 years of his life.

I accept that Jesus existed but what you don't really have good evidence for is His divinity or the truth of the miraculous claims that were ascribed to Him.

 

[Spartan]

I accept that Jesus existed but what you don't really have good evidence for is His divinity or the truth of the miraculous claims that were ascribed to Him.

Keep reading the works of Dr. Gary Habermas, and the deity and works of Jesus will become much more viable for you.

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;
"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

 

[Jos]

Keep reading the works of Dr. Gary Habermas, and the deity and works of Jesus will become much more viable for you.

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;
"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

I don't think anyone can prove another person's divinity... it has to be taken on faith. I'm sure all I'll see are a bunch of unfalsifiable assertions.

 

[Spartan]

I don't think anyone can prove another person's divinity... it has to be taken on faith. I'm sure all I'll see are a bunch of unfalsifiable assertions.

No, you won't. What you will find is a solid set of arguments for the supernatural resurrection of Jesus Christ. Once those 12 historical facts are researched - which they have been - then there's no other logical conclusion for what happened except the resurrection.

So what do you have to lose? I recommend you read these and THEN if you have an issue let me know.

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;
"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

In the meantime, which skeptic here can demonstrate - with evidence - one fictitious account of a person, place, or event - in the Gospels. If you have one lay it out with the pertinent scriptures and your case / argument. I'll gladly take a look at it.