Even if we assume that first cause argument is worth a damn, so what?
What causeless thing do you propose caused the first cause?
This is an illogical question. You are asking, what causeless cause caused the (causeless) first cause? You are confusing first cause with infinite regress.
-only effects need a cause. The first cause is not an effect (doesn't need a cause).
- If we reject infinite regression, then the chain has a beginning. The beginning is the first cause. Being a cause (not an effect), then it's causeless. Being causeless, then there is nothing to exert any influence/impose any limits on him. Being causeless, then he has no beginning. Being the first in the chain, then nothing precedes him (unless you continue in an infinite regression). The first cause is the absolute end of the chain.
- The "first" cause has no beginning . spacetime itself is an effect. space and time only exist within (because of) the spacetime effect, beyond that effect, neither space nor time has any meaning. The question about the cause for the causeless "first" cause is illogical. The word "before" itself doesn't apply, especially in absence of time (an effect).
You theists are setting up this argument solely for the purpose of opening the door to the idea of the existence of god, are you not?
Sure. This is the purpose of the argument. The existence of God.
By your own reasoning, then, and using your own argument that the negation of an idea does not necessarily mean that a countering idea is accurate, what does it even matter?
yes, the negation of an idea does not necessarily mean that a countering idea is accurate. Also the validity of a logic, renders the countering idea illogical.
Unless you are prepared to support the thing that you're trying to argue for, you're just wasting your breath
I am supporting the concept that the existence of God is a logical necessity.
The first cause could, using your own logic, just as likely be an Invisible Purple Cosmic Elephant as it could be your deity of choice, right? (But please bring on the probability arguments, either way)
No, Rather than meaningless illogical speculations, here is what we could know about the first cause through logic:
- the first cause has no beginning ""first"". Nothing is before. Before doesn't apply.
- every thing other than the first cause, is an effect. effects (such as space, time and physical laws) do not limit or affect the first cause in any way.
- the first cause influences/causes effects but no effect can have an influence on the first cause because the first cause is not an effect and not subject to causation. The first cause is necessarily "eternal unchangeable".
-the first cause has the force to exert an influence. The magnitude of that force would be (at a minimum) proportionate to the magnitude of the effects. Not all effects are known. But since nothing can cause/impose any limits on the first cause, then the power through which effects are forced into existence is necessarily limitless.
-since there is nothing to influence/change the first cause , then the specific beginning (creation point) of an effect is only governed by a specific influence exerted by the first cause.
- every thing is a limited effect except for the first cause. That means, nothing is of the likeness of the first cause. every effect has a beginning and subject to limits. the first cause has no beginning and not subject to any limits/causation.
- if you think about your example "Invisible Purple Cosmic Elephant" or any other example of any sort that my cross your mind. You will see that It's a meaning that involves multiple components. Visibility and color has to do with reflection of light (electromagnetic waves) and how is it specifically perceived by a brain. Cosmic is an indication of a space that encompasses an object. Elephant is an example of a living creature like many others. All of these are limited effects (Limited with respect to its containment in time, space and it's dependency on other causes/effects). It has nothing to do with the first cause that is totally free of limits/causation. We and every thing in our realm are (limited) effects. Whatever crosses our mind or can be imagined, is something that belongs to the realm of effects. Nothing within the effects realm is of the likeness of the first cause. The first cause is unique. The likeness of the first cause, can not be imagined.
To summarize, the first cause is eternal, unchangeable, has unlimited power, he is the cause for all effects and non of the effects is of his likeness.
Quran said, "There is nothing of the likeness of him" (Ash-Shura 11)
Quran said, " Say: He, Allah, is One. Allah is He on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And none is like Him." (Al-Ikhlas 1-4)
The prophet said, "whatever (example) crossed your mind, God is different"
I don't expect you to see or agree with what I said. Others will. The issue is not the capacity. It's the willingness.
