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Evolution and Creationism: because ...

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
History cannot be observed again. A scientific theory has to be observed before I take it seriously. Many aspects of evolutionary theory have or are being observed, so I accept them. No one observed the rate of growth of a stalactite.
Nobody alive observed the rate of the growth of them a hundred years ago. But the size of them was noted a hundred years ago and is being observed now. A thinking person can assume that the rate of growth 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 250 years ago, 700 years ago, 2000 years ago, 5000 years ago is the same.

Did the caves they grow in appear suddenly or did erosion create them?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
History cannot be observed again. A scientific theory has to be observed before I take it seriously. Many aspects of evolutionary theory have or are being observed, so I accept them. No one observed the rate of growth of a stalactite. Science is rendered impotent to rewrite history, as the scientific method requires observation.

Yet, you take seriously accounts of talking snakes (pretty much difficult to observe) and people resurrecting from death. Among many things which are not reproducible.

How does it work?

Ciao

- viole
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Speciation is being observed in the breeding of canines. Some dog breeds are losing the ability to procreate with each other without human assistance. If this continues, there could be different species of dogs. I'll give y'all that one. But that still doesn't have relevance to my argument.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Nobody alive observed the rate of the growth of them a hundred years ago. But the size of them was noted a hundred years ago and is being observed now. A thinking person can assume that the rate of growth 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 250 years ago, 700 years ago, 2000 years ago, 5000 years ago is the same.

Did the caves they grow in appear suddenly or did erosion create them?
I'll make another claim- God changed the laws of physics at the the time of the Great Flood, so evidence from physics doesn't apply before this event. Catastrophic events have happened and science used to admit that.

A small town man may have never seen anything change in his hometown for many years, so he assumes it has always been that way. I wouldn't call a thinking man for that assumption.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'll make another claim- God changed the laws of physics at the the time of the Great Flood, so evidence from physics doesn't apply before this event. Catastrophic events have happened and science used to admit that.

A small town man may have never seen anything change in his hometown for many years, so he assumes it has always been that way. I wouldn't call a thinking man for that assumption.
Were the stalactites growing before the flood or since the flood?
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Yet, you take seriously accounts of talking snakes (pretty much difficult to observe) and people resurrecting from death. Among many things which are not reproducible.

How does it work?

Ciao

- viole
What if I read a book about George Washington that says he threw a coin across a river,(which is impossible) so then conclude that George Washington never existed? Would that be rational?

History as a discipline has developed over the course of time. Many say it wasn't till 700 BC that historians even tried to write history exactly the way it happened, so history before that time requires a different historical method.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Were the stalactites growing before the flood or since the flood?
That's the whole point, I don't know because I did not observe it. A mark of intelligence is to admit he doesn't know. Much "science" claims to know things about history that runs counter to actual history, that isn't intelligent.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's the whole point, I don't know because I did not observe it. A mark of intelligence is to admit he doesn't know. Much "science" claims to know things about history that runs counter to actual history, that isn't intelligent.
I asked because rushing water would have broken most or all of them so they must have begun growing only after the flood water subsided.
Also, they would have dissolved in the flood water.
 
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Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
I asked because rushing water would have broken most or all of them so they must have begun growing only after the flood water subsided.
Also, they would have dissolved in the flood water.
Carbon dating is nonsense, but your evidence about stalactites is worth study. Another one is about how many rings there are in trees, a ring in a tree trunk can be assumed to be a year. That kind of evidence is interesting, not fabricated evidence by pseudo intellectuals passing it off to the public as "true" science.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
My first argument was that it has never been observed that a mutation has increased a life form's ability to survive. First a couple people posted one word, "nonsense." Then a couple people posted about genes that they believe are mutations that are of benefit. I asked how they know it really is a mutation, that maybe those genes always existed. Nobody replied yet. It always get back to "the Bible is false, and those who believe it are ignorant" and no matter how many times y'all repeat that, it doesn't help your case.
I dealt with that both the question of a mutation increasing a life form's ability to survive and the issue that maybe those genes always existed.
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
History cannot be observed again. A scientific theory has to be observed before I take it seriously. Many aspects of evolutionary theory have or are being observed, so I accept them. No one observed the rate of growth of a stalactite. Science is rendered impotent to rewrite history, as the scientific method requires observation.

Carbon dating is nonsense, but your evidence about stalactites is worth study. Another one is about how many rings there are in trees, a ring in a tree trunk can be assumed to be a year. That kind of evidence is interesting, not fabricated evidence by pseudo intellectuals passing it off to the public as "true" science.
Yet radiometric dating and dendrochronology agree rather exactly.
 
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Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
I dealt with that both the question of a mutation has increased a life form's ability to survive and the issue that maybe those genes always existed.
And I accepted it. I still doubt if the gene is question is a mutation, since even you admit that it's popped up off and on throughout recent history. Let me ask this, has genetic engineers even been able create a hardier crop by introducing "mutations"? There are convincing arguments out there that genetic engineering is a failure and many want the FDA to require foods to be labeled as GMO. Saying artificially introduced mutations have not created a better food supply.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Nah ... clear quote mine:

"Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists of Darwin's time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record. and it is not always clear, in fact it's rarely clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find." (Raup, David M., "Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology," Bulletin, Field Museum of Natural History, vol. 50, 1979, p. 23)

ignores:

"Now let me step back from the problem and very generally discuss natural selection and what we know about it. I think it is safe to say that we know for sure that natural selection, as a process, does work. There is a mountain of experimental and observational evidence, much of it predating genetics, which shows that natural selection as a biological process works."

from the same article.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Nah ... clear quote mine:

"Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists of Darwin's time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record. and it is not always clear, in fact it's rarely clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find." (Raup, David M., "Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology," Bulletin, Field Museum of Natural History, vol. 50, 1979, p. 23)

ignores:

"Now let me step back from the problem and very generally discuss natural selection and what we know about it. I think it is safe to say that we know for sure that natural selection, as a process, does work. There is a mountain of experimental and observational evidence, much of it predating genetics, which shows that natural selection as a biological process works."

from the same article.
I would say that natural selection is a fact, but evolutional theory requires mutation to improve life. Mutations don't improve life, whether it's through genetic engineering or something natural. But you showed me an example, and I accept it and also doubt it.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Exactly, you are brighter than I thought. One could say God created the universe yesterday at 3 PM with a bunch of created memories in our minds and no amount of evidence could prove that wrong.
Given that such a claim is unfalsifiable (and also unsupportable), there's nothing scientific about it. You could make literally an infinite number of claims about the past being radically different but then having God transform things supernaturally and erasing any evidence left behind to show that it ever happened. So how do you go about determining which past is the most likely? You use Occam's Razor: the model with the fewest assumptions which conforms with existing evidence is most likely to be the correct one. In this case, it is simpler to assume that things are actually the way they appear to be rather than some grand cosmic conspiracy having taken place one or more times in the past. Otherwise, you could just as easily argue that one can't find their car keys because Satan hid them in an attempt to keep the person from driving to church. Or maybe they just misplaced them. Or maybe the dog knocked them under the couch after playing with them. In light of Occam's Razor, does the Satan scenario seem likely at all? It's just as sensible as saying that "things were different in the past but now God changed them" because the supporting evidence for either scenario is zero.
That's the whole point, I don't know because I did not observe it.
It's interesting that you say this because the earlier post where you say that God could have created false memories in our minds refutes it. You might remember that you saw something, but that memory could be a fake one implanted by God. So there's no way you can know for sure. If you are going to seriously consider the possibility that God is deceptive and changes things around without any ability to know different, then there is no reason to take any of your own observations seriously. There would be literally no way to tell truth from fiction. No way to tell a true memory from a false one. So how can one reason at all like that?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The YEC concept of God is rather interesting as it logically compares to the western plains Indians who believed Coyote as being the Trickster.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Evolutionists might say, "You will forever be lost, or confused, or deluded, or stupid and ignorant, unless you accept the Truth."

And Pontius Pilate says, "Okay Jesus, before I execute you, answer me one question, What is-- " the Truth"?
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Given that such a claim is unfalsifiable (and also unsupportable), there's nothing scientific about it. You could make literally an infinite number of claims about the past being radically different but then having God transform things supernaturally and erasing any evidence left behind to show that it ever happened. So how do you go about determining which past is the most likely? You use Occam's Razor: the model with the fewest assumptions which conforms with existing evidence is most likely to be the correct one. In this case, it is simpler to assume that things are actually the way they appear to be rather than some grand cosmic conspiracy having taken place one or more times in the past. Otherwise, you could just as easily argue that one can't find their car keys because Satan hid them in an attempt to keep the person from driving to church. Or maybe they just misplaced them. Or maybe the dog knocked them under the couch after playing with them. In light of Occam's Razor, does the Satan scenario seem likely at all? It's just as sensible as saying that "things were different in the past but now God changed them" because the supporting evidence for either scenario is zero.

It's interesting that you say this because the earlier post where you say that God could have created false memories in our minds refutes it. You might remember that you saw something, but that memory could be a fake one implanted by God. So there's no way you can know for sure. If you are going to seriously consider the possibility that God is deceptive and changes things around without any ability to know different, then there is no reason to take any of your own observations seriously. There would be literally no way to tell truth from fiction. No way to tell a true memory from a false one. So how can one reason at all like that?
Of course many claims aren't scientific. Does a claim have to be a scientific claim to be a legitimate claim? Do you believe Science has a monopoly on Truth? Or do you believe the scientific method is the only method to derive truth? Philosophy has determined at least 5 methods to find truth, at least.

But I'll give you that one, my Creator God isn't a trickster. But I believe he could be if he wanted to be.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Evolutionists might say, "You will forever be lost, or confused, or deluded, or stupid and ignorant, unless you accept the Truth."

And Pontius Pilate says, "Okay Jesus, before I execute you, answer me one question, What is-- " the Truth"?
"Truth" is not singular, nor found in just one arena of our experiences. But if we eliminate objectivity in any area, we can easily be misled into believing all sorts of falsehoods. Science relies on objectivity-- religion does not. That doesn't mean that religion is wrong, only that we cannot verify most of the basic beliefs found within them.

The line I tend to use a lot is this: Whatever happened, happened. Hopefully, our orientation should be to try and ascertain what happened in an objective a manner as possible.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
"Truth" is not singular, nor found in just one arena of our experiences. But if we eliminate objectivity in any area, we can easily be misled into believing all sorts of falsehoods. Science relies on objectivity-- religion does not. That doesn't mean that religion is wrong, only that we cannot verify most of the basic beliefs found within them.

The line I tend to use a lot is this: Whatever happened, happened. Hopefully, our orientation should be to try and ascertain what happened in an objective a manner as possible.
There is no competition between religion and science. Charles Darwin himself was a religious man. But when a field of discipline ventures beyond the realm of what that discipline can do, and then infringed on another discipline, that's arrogant. When pseudo intellectuals pass off "scientific' claims making statements about history, they infringe on historians who might know a hell of a lot more than was thought. The scientific method, I have no fault with it. Like some jobs need a screw driver, some require a power drill, and some jobs require something different like a wrench. There are many disciplines of study, but some people are beginning to believe Science will solve their problems and answer all the questions, like Science is a god.
 
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