Evolution and Creationism: because ...

[metis]

There is no competition between religion and science. Charles Darwin himself was a religious man. But when a field of discipline ventures beyond the realm of what that discipline can do, and then infringed on another discipline, that's arrogant. When pseudo intellectuals pass off "scientific' claims making statements about history, they infringe on historians who might know a hell of a lot more than was thought. The scientific method, I have no fault with it. Like some jobs need a screw driver, some require a power drill, and some jobs require something different like a wrench. There are many disciplines of study, but some people are beginning to believe Science will solve their problems and answer all the questions, like Science is a god.

I haven't bad-mouthed religion, so I don't know where the above is coming from. I attend at least one and often two services each weekend, which wouldn't be logical if I didn't believe that faith very much can have a major role in one's life, including my own. Seems like you got me pegged wrong.

 

[Brian Schuh]

I haven't bad-mouthed religion, so I don't know where the above is coming from. I attend at least one and often two services each weekend, which wouldn't be logical if I didn't believe that faith very much can have a major role in one's life, including my own. Seems like you got me pegged wrong.

I apologize. So you already know, science and religions are both disciplines that have their own realm. I just believe that false " scientists" are applying the scientific method to questions the scientific method is impotent to address, fabricating evidence to fool the gullible masses.

 

[McBell]

I apologize. So you already know, science and religions are both disciplines that have their own realm. I just believe that false " scientists" are applying the scientific method to questions the scientific method is impotent to address, fabricating evidence to fool the gullible masses.

Only stands to reason.
I mean, theists have been trying to invade the science realm (for lack of a better term) for centuries

 

[Brian Schuh]

Only stands to reason.
I mean, theists have been trying to invade the science realm (for lack of a better term) for centuries

Creationists just wanted their children to learn about their Creator God and asked that Intelligent Design be taught in schools, and all it is, is how it is plausible and to point out the gaping holes in the theory of evolution. Many students graduating high schools falsely believe evolution is a fact. They don't understand it is a theory, and just a theory, not something which has been observed in its entirety. This is robbing children of their parent's Creator. And the sad thing is that creationism has a lot to say when it's criticising evolution. Evolutuonalists seem afraid to address the critisims of creationists in a fair fight, but always get back to "the Bible is false, if you believe it you are ignorant or stupid, maybe even delusional."

 

[Sapiens]

And I accepted it. I still doubt if the gene is question is a mutation, since even you admit that it's popped up off and on throughout recent history. Let me ask this, has genetic engineers even been able create a hardier crop by introducing "mutations"? There are convincing arguments out there that genetic engineering is a failure and many want the FDA to require foods to be labeled as GMO. Saying artificially introduced mutations have not created a better food supply.

No, it has not"popped on and off" that's not how it works. Maybe this will help:

Discussion:

A strong geographical link between the highest HbS allele frequencies and high malaria endemicity was observed at the global scale (Fig. 4a), but this observation is influenced primarily by the relationship found in Africa (Fig. 4b). The gradual increase in HbS allele frequencies from epidemic areas to holoendemic areas in Africa is consistent with the hypothesis that malaria protection by HbS involves the enhancement of not only innate but also acquired immunity to P. falciparum31. Interactions with haemoglobin C32,33 might explain the lower HbS allele frequencies in West Africa24. Despite the presence of large malarious areas, HbS is absent in the Americas and in large parts of Asia2 (Fig. 1a). Therefore, no geographical confirmation of the malaria hypothesis could be identified in these regions. Although several haemoglobin variants have been identified in the Americas5, none of the malaria protective polymorphisms have been observed in the indigenous populations of this continent19. The combination of the low likelihood of an independent HbS mutation arising and a relatively low selection pressure (due to the absence of holoendemic areas, the more recent arrival of malaria, as well as the predominance of P. vivax) could contribute to the absence of HbS in that region. In Southeast Asia34, other malaria protective polymorphisms have been identified (haemoglobin E (HbE), the thalassaemias, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency and Southeast Asian ovalocytosis) and levels of malaria endemicity were relatively high. It is suspected that HbE and Southeast Asian ovalocytosis in particular may have had epistatic interactions35,36, altering the selection pressure for the HbS gene in that region37. The complex social structure and the predominance of P. vivax38 are also considered as likely to contribute to the unresolved geographical relationship in India. Ongoing work to create an open-access database for several malaria protective polymorphisms will allow more comprehensive distribution mapping and improve our understanding of their geographical interaction.

Substantial variations in HbS allele frequencies over short distances (up to 10% over <50 km) have been described in literature5, for example, in relation to altitude, rainfall or Anopheles survival39, which underlie variations in selection40. Such spatial heterogeneity was observed in the geodatabase. The combination of a detailed georeferencing process, the use of a geostatistical model able to incorporate the multiple scales of variation within the data and a semicontinuous gradient of HbS allele frequencies allowed us to describe the global distribution and the high geographical variability of this gene more rigorously than achieved in previous maps17,18,19. The uncertainty measure (see Fig. 2) provides an important estimate of the limitations associated with a retrospective data set, and can highlight areas prone to small population samples and/or areas lacking observations (for example, New Zealand).

Among the factors that might contribute to the heterogeneity observed in the HbS allele frequency in hyperendemic areas in Africa (Fig. 3b), we identified (i) a component of geographical sampling error from an 'opportunistic sample' of surveys that we were able to source from literature; (ii) the kinetics of the spread of the HbS gene, which leads to an exponential increase in areas in which a selective pressure appears, but to a much slower decrease in areas in which the selective pressure disappears41; (iii) long-term (sociological or physical) isolation of local populations, which could result in pockets of lower HbS allele frequencies ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060623/

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Evolutuonalists seem afraid to address the critisims of creationists in a fair fight, but always get back to "the Bible is false, if you believe it you are ignorant or stupid, maybe even delusional."

What world do you live in?

 

[Sapiens]

Creationists just wanted their children to learn about their Creator God and asked that Intelligent Design be taught in schools, and all it is, is how it is plausible and to point out the gaping holes in the theory of evolution. Many students graduating high schools falsely believe evolution is a fact. They don't understand it is a theory, and just a theory, not something which has been observed in its entirety. This is robbing children of their parent's Creator. And the sad thing is that creationism has a lot to say when it's criticising evolution. Evolutuonalists seem afraid to address the critisims of creationists in a fair fight, but always get back to "the Bible is false, if you believe it you are ignorant or stupid, maybe even delusional."

Shall we teach alchemy in chemistry class and astrology in astronomy class too? Everyone has a right to their own opinions, but not to their own facts. Evolution, like it or not, is a "fact." There are no gaping holes. You need to understand that a scientific theory is as at the top of the scape, as powerful as it gets. Creation has yet to make even a weak case.

I would say that natural selection is a fact, but evolutional theory requires mutation to improve life. Mutations don't improve life, whether it's through genetic engineering or something natural. But you showed me an example, and I accept it and also doubt it.

The cognitive dissonance of the situation you describe should be deafening.

 

[Brian Schuh]

No, it has not"popped on and off" that's not how it works. Maybe this will help:

Discussion:

A strong geographical link between the highest HbS allele frequencies and high malaria endemicity was observed at the global scale (Fig. 4a), but this observation is influenced primarily by the relationship found in Africa (Fig. 4b). The gradual increase in HbS allele frequencies from epidemic areas to holoendemic areas in Africa is consistent with the hypothesis that malaria protection by HbS involves the enhancement of not only innate but also acquired immunity to P. falciparum31. Interactions with haemoglobin C32,33 might explain the lower HbS allele frequencies in West Africa24. Despite the presence of large malarious areas, HbS is absent in the Americas and in large parts of Asia2 (Fig. 1a). Therefore, no geographical confirmation of the malaria hypothesis could be identified in these regions. Although several haemoglobin variants have been identified in the Americas5, none of the malaria protective polymorphisms have been observed in the indigenous populations of this continent19. The combination of the low likelihood of an independent HbS mutation arising and a relatively low selection pressure (due to the absence of holoendemic areas, the more recent arrival of malaria, as well as the predominance of P. vivax) could contribute to the absence of HbS in that region. In Southeast Asia34, other malaria protective polymorphisms have been identified (haemoglobin E (HbE), the thalassaemias, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency and Southeast Asian ovalocytosis) and levels of malaria endemicity were relatively high. It is suspected that HbE and Southeast Asian ovalocytosis in particular may have had epistatic interactions35,36, altering the selection pressure for the HbS gene in that region37. The complex social structure and the predominance of P. vivax38 are also considered as likely to contribute to the unresolved geographical relationship in India. Ongoing work to create an open-access database for several malaria protective polymorphisms will allow more comprehensive distribution mapping and improve our understanding of their geographical interaction.

Substantial variations in HbS allele frequencies over short distances (up to 10% over <50 km) have been described in literature5, for example, in relation to altitude, rainfall or Anopheles survival39, which underlie variations in selection40. Such spatial heterogeneity was observed in the geodatabase. The combination of a detailed georeferencing process, the use of a geostatistical model able to incorporate the multiple scales of variation within the data and a semicontinuous gradient of HbS allele frequencies allowed us to describe the global distribution and the high geographical variability of this gene more rigorously than achieved in previous maps17,18,19. The uncertainty measure (see Fig. 2) provides an important estimate of the limitations associated with a retrospective data set, and can highlight areas prone to small population samples and/or areas lacking observations (for example, New Zealand).

Among the factors that might contribute to the heterogeneity observed in the HbS allele frequency in hyperendemic areas in Africa (Fig. 3b), we identified (i) a component of geographical sampling error from an 'opportunistic sample' of surveys that we were able to source from literature; (ii) the kinetics of the spread of the HbS gene, which leads to an exponential increase in areas in which a selective pressure appears, but to a much slower decrease in areas in which the selective pressure disappears41; (iii) long-term (sociological or physical) isolation of local populations, which could result in pockets of lower HbS allele frequencies ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060623/

You are explaining a case of natural selection, I already said that it is a fact. You are preaching to the choir.

You are assuming Sickle Cell Anemia, or whatever the condition is, is a mutation, why is that gene a mutation? Do you assume it is just because it causes a disease?

 

[Brian Schuh]

What world do you live in?

Same world, but have a different world view. It is next to impossible to change someone's world view. People from different world views will examine all the same evidence, and still incorporate it into the same world view they started with. You have a worldview as well.

 

[Sapiens]

Same world, but have a different world view. It is next to impossible to change someone's world view. People from different world views will examine all the same evidence, and still incorporate it into the same world view they started with. You have a worldview as well.

Even world views need to be vetted against reality, they are not automatically acceptable and correct. I submit that your's does not hold up when critically examined and that that is the reason you decry the use of rational science to falsify fable-based "history."

 

[Sapiens]

You are explaining a case of natural selection, I already said that it is a fact. You are preaching to the choir.

You are assuming Sickle Cell Anemia, or whatever the condition is, is a mutation, why is that gene a mutation? Do you assume it is just because it causes a disease?

We know that it is a mutation because we can trace it back to the exact amino acid and a base pair DNA change. I already showed you that.

 

[Brian Schuh]

We know that it is a mutation because we can trace it back to the exact amino acid and a base pair DNA change. I already showed you that.

Alright, there is a mutation that has a survival benefit. Now how is that relevant in disputing my claim, that a Creator created all life 5776 years ago?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Now how is that relevant in disputing my claim, that a Creator created all life 5776 years ago?

A claim that is not testable and intersubjectvely verifiable is completely worthless.

 

[Brian Schuh]

A claim that is not testable and intersubjectvely verifiable is completely worthless.

Kind of like the Big Bang? No one observed it, not testable, just a myth. No less of a myth than a Creator God.

 

[Brian Schuh]

The pope placed the moment of Creation at the Big Bang, I place it 5776 years ago, and also showed that it could have been yesterday at 3 PM. Why do y'all feel a need to believe that there is no Creator? And then push that on other people's children in the public schools like it is a fact?

 

[savagewind]

The pope placed the moment of Creation at the Big Bang, I place it 5776 years ago, and also showed that it could have been yesterday at 3 PM. Why do y'all feel a need to believe that there is no Creator? And then push that on other people's children in the public schools like it is a fact?

5776 years ago and the creator are two entirely different subjects to talk about.

It is possible that The Creator created many millions of years ago. Why not?

 

[Brian Schuh]

5776 years ago and the creator are two entirely different subjects to talk about.

It is possible that The Creator created many millions of years ago. Why not?

This argument isn't about evolution anymore. It is obvious that there is a Creator. Of course it is possible that God created at the Big Bang, one of the popes even said it. And it is also possible he created us yesterday at 3 PM. The question isn't what is possible, but what actually happened.

 

[savagewind]

This argument isn't about evolution anymore. It is obvious that there is a Creator. Of course it is possible that God created at the Big Bang, one of the popes even said it. And it is also possible he created us yesterday at 3 PM. The question isn't what is possible, but what actually happened.

You are arguing for a 5776 year old Earth. Are you not?

 

[Brian Schuh]

You are arguing for a 5776 year old Earth. Are you not?

Right, the first man created 5776 years ago. What happened prior to the first man is written in cryptic language and can't be understood by vast majority of people. Adam could have counted his birthdays beginning the Hebrew year count. Some believe a small group has counted the years from the beginning.

 

[Shad]

If I start with an assumption that a rock was created and an evolutionist carbon dates it, my question would be, "how do you know how radioactive the rock was when God created it?" Showing that the evolutionist also has an assumption. For this reason, any evidence from carbon dating is to dismissed, now what evidence do you have that the Earth is older than 5776 years?

You do not even know what carbon dating is. It is done on organics not rocks..... You created a strawman based on your own ignorance. Congratulations. Its also not evolution but developed by chemists....