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Evolution and Mind/Body Dualism

AndromedaRXJ

Active Member
I am saying that no event can come to pass if an infinite number of events preceded it. Plain and simple.

Yes I read what you said the first dozen times. I'm simply saying it isn't a real argument against infinite time. When you say "come to pass", come to pass what?

On an infinite number line, there's no actual position or number at an infinite distance from any other number. You're trying to treat the number line as if it had a starting point in the first place.

Whether it makes sense or not..I am saying no single event in time can come to pass if an infinite number of events preceded.....however you want to put it; objects traveling through time...whatever...it makes no difference what view of time you have. If something happens, it happens in time...I am not about to get in a technical discussion about time.

When talking about the physical world, it's important to get into technicalities. You're probably not use to that thinking spiritually. You can't just ignore any technicalities I point out.

The points in between 1 and 2 are finite.

Debatable. A number line containing all real numbers contains an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2. There's 1.001, 1.0011, 1.00111.... 1.9, 1.99, 1.999, 1.999, 1.9999 etc...

How many moments can fit in a second?

When simple analogies, break-downs, analyzations, explaining, in-depth comprehensive studies and conversations fail...

Saying "makes no sense", "strawman", "absurd" over and over isn't breaking anything down, analyzing or explaining anything. You said you even refuse to get into technicalities.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Call_of_the_Wild

What doesn’t make sense is saying you can’t continue because you don’t understand what I’m saying, yet presumably you are saying you will be able to understand if we continue the discussion in private!

I think you understand perfectly what has been said but don’t like the implications that undermine your arguments. You’ve said in the PM that would like to argue the controversy on a ‘point-by-point basis, and that is something I would be very pleased to do here.

I would also pleased to do it here, but I can't do it if I don't understand what you are saying. If you don't want to continue the conversation on another platform, we have nothing else to talk about on here.

You and I are working in different time zones and the consequential delay in our responses means that for all practical purposes there will be no difference in the way the discussion is conducted. So I don’t see why there should be a problem having the debate here as the particular argument I’ve given you, and your responses to it, have been solely between the two of us anyway.

Again, the point is; I don't understand what you are saying. In fact, it seems downright nonsense. Yeah, we are in different time zones...which means absolutely nothing considering the fact that I recall being in Iraq, which is a completey different time zone than the states, and having phone conversations with my parents almost every single day. So in other words, where there is a will, there is a way...so don't give me this "time zone" nonsense.

Therefore I fail to see why you so often want to continue in private

Because the current format isn't getting us anywhere. I don't understand what you are saying...plain and simple, so I figured a point by point, real-time platform is needed. Just when I think I successfully deciphered what you are saying, you tell me "thats not what I mean't" or something along those lines...and quite frankly, I am tired of it...and this has happened more than once.


, other than perhaps because you know I’m not interested in discussions off-forum.

There is a big difference in being interested, but unable too...and just not being interested...so which is it?

A conversation is a conversation...you fail to see why I want to continue in private, and I fail to see why a private conversation is such a big deal.

The reason I take part in discussions only in the forum is because there are protocols to be observed (which are enforced by the moderators)

Oh please.

, and others too can follow the debate and keep us on our toes even if they choose not to interact.

Well, give them a transcript of the discussion for all I care. I am not interested in audiences...I am only interested in getting to the truth of the matter, but hey...if you aren't interested, that is fine..but your future posts to me are gonna fall on blind eyes.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Yes I read what you said the first dozen times. I'm simply saying it isn't a real argument against infinite time.

The argument is against infinity, PERIOD...whether it is infinite time, infinite events, infinite marbles, infinite money, infinite baseball cards, WHATEVER.

When you say "come to pass", come to pass what?

Something that happened, and is no longer happening.

On an infinite number line, there's no actual position or number at an infinite distance from any other number. You're trying to treat the number line as if it had a starting point in the first place.

I understand your job is to steer the conversation into irrelevant places it doesn't need to go..but I'm not buying it. I am talking about events. If there is an infinite chain of events in a past-eternal universe, no single event would take place. If there were an infinite number of births preceding yours, you would never be born, because infinity cannot be traversed.

When talking about the physical world, it's important to get into technicalities. You're probably not use to that thinking spiritually. You can't just ignore any technicalities I point out.

Technicalities? LOL

Debatable. A number line containing all real numbers contains an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2. There's 1.001, 1.0011, 1.00111.... 1.9, 1.99, 1.999, 1.999, 1.9999 etc...

So if I asked you to count all of the numbers between 1 and 2, would you ever get to 2? No. So how is it you are able to bypass all of those numbers and arrive at 2 if you didn't count all the numbers in-between...but you aren't able to bypass all of those numbers and get to 2 if you counted all the numbers in-between?

How many moments can fit in a second?

Don't know..but such a question does nothing against my argument.

Saying "makes no sense", "strawman", "absurd" over and over isn't breaking anything down, analyzing or explaining anything. You said you even refuse to get into technicalities.

Don't need to get get into technicalities regarding time, when I am talking about events in time.

And notice my question was never directly answered...if an infinite number of births preceded your birth, how will the event of your birth come to pass? All I want is a direct answer to this...not straw man objections.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
fantôme profane;3892030 said:
Just hang on, pretty soon he will start talking about pet stores.

Go to a pet store and ask for a hamster...and the clerk brings you out a snake. Would you not recognize the difference in "kinds" then? It is easy to recognize "kinds" in that scenario, but when it comes to evolution, all of a sudden it is time to get technical...it is the same thing.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
That is completely unresponsive to the very specific questions I asked.

I got a question for you...if you have two cats as pets in your home..one male, and one female...and they copulate, and they have a baby...would you expect anything besides a baby kitten?

Yes or no???
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
What I don't understand is where you're getting any sort of implied traversal. Exactly what is doing the traversing?

Well, what does "traverse" mean?...to "travel or cross through".

If I told you run a mile, and you run two miles, you've "traversed" at least one mile. The point is, infinity cannot be traversed, in the same way you can run a mile. You cannot run an infinite number of miles...Get it?

If you can't successfully count to infinity, how can a past-eternal universe successfully "arrive" at any current event X? Makes no sense.

And it's "come to pass" not "come to past", for the record.

Cool, you've corrected me, just for the record. So let me bring to your attention, for the record, that you haven't made an adequate objection to my argument as of yet. That is for the record, too.

Hypotheticals do not necessarily reflect reality, and so should never be used as a basis to describe reality in any definite terms.

Right, the hypothethical situation that I gave does not reflect reality...I agree.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Actually, seeing animals (including humans) giving birth to things that they are not is exactly what they see. The process of reproduction is not the process of cloning. I am not my parents.

In any case, when we broke down your view of how "kind" works, it turns out to be completely inadequate and inaccurate, and therefore unsuitable for accurate measurement of life's diversity.

I already demonstrated through analogies which you so love that there is no definitive line between a thing and another thing; rather, there's a large transitional gap. You did not respond to that. Your logic would dictate that that means I'm on the right track, but I know better than to engage in such fallacious thinking.

I will ask you the same question I asked Sap...this time....I will use dogs....if you have two dogs as pets...one male, and one female...and they copulate, and give birth...would you expect anything besides a baby puppy? Yes or no?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I will ask you the same question I asked Sap...this time....I will use dogs....if you have two dogs as pets...one male, and one female...and they copulate, and give birth...would you expect anything besides a baby puppy? Yes or no?
Before I deal with your question, please so me the respect of answering those that I already put on the table.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I understand that that is the theory, but that isn't the observation. There is a disconnect between the theory and the observation..which is something that evolutionists would not like to admit.



You believe that matter was inanimate, then it suddenly/gradually "came to life". How is that any less magic than the God hypothesis?

It IS the observation, which is why it's the theory.
 

AndromedaRXJ

Active Member
The argument is against infinity, PERIOD...whether it is infinite time, infinite events, infinite marbles, infinite money, infinite baseball cards, WHATEVER.

Infinite God?

Something that happened, and is no longer happening.

Which is only ever relative, not absolute.

I am talking about events. If there is an infinite chain of events in a past-eternal universe, no single event would take place.

You can have infinite events within finite time. All you need is infinite space.

So if I asked you to count all of the numbers between 1 and 2, would you ever get to 2?

No, I would never get to 2. Counting a sequence of integers requires that we skip over an infinite amount of real numbers.

By that same token, I didn't have to travel 13.7 billion years in time to get to my birth. I simply started at my birth.

Don't know..but such a question does nothing against my argument.

It's a rather important question seeing as we're talking about infinite events.

Don't need to get get into technicalities regarding time, when I am talking about events in time.

So then you have a problem with infinite events, not infinte time. Right, so how many EVENTS can fit into a second? Think about it.

And notice my question was never directly answered...if an infinite number of births preceded your birth, how will the event of your birth come to pass? All I want is a direct answer to this...not straw man objections.

My direct answers I've given you already. You just don't like them.

An infinite number of births preceding mine guarantees that it's happened before. Infinite time guarantees my birth, not prevents it.

Also, "come to pass" is relative, as in the present is simply your position in time. It's not an ultimate reference point.

How about this. Prove that there must be a starting point in time that must be an infinite distance from my birth?
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
Call_of_the_Wild, you have a belief system that clouds your judgement, keeps you in the dark and places you in conflict with the vast majority of learned men and women from all over the world. Now, perhaps this intellectual isolation helps you to feel persecuted and helps you to feel that your faith is being tested, but that's complete and utter crap. You really need to consider why it is that you need to feel persecuted and alone, because that is clearly at the root of your issues.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Well, what does "traverse" mean?...to "travel or cross through".

If I told you run a mile, and you run two miles, you've "traversed" at least one mile. The point is, infinity cannot be traversed, in the same way you can run a mile. You cannot run an infinite number of miles...Get it?

If you can't successfully count to infinity, how can a past-eternal universe successfully "arrive" at any current event X? Makes no sense.

Counting "to infinity" simply means counting and never stopping. Infinity is a direction, not a point.

In any case, that doesn't answer the question: what, exactly, is doing the traversing?

Right, the hypothethical situation that I gave does not reflect reality...I agree.
Then I shall discard your hypothetical situation as irrelevant: neither proving nor disproving anything on the table, and adding nothing of value to the debate.

I will ask you the same question I asked Sap...this time....I will use dogs....if you have two dogs as pets...one male, and one female...and they copulate, and give birth...would you expect anything besides a baby puppy? Yes or no?

'Course not. But if a dog and a coyote to copulate, you'd get something that's neither dog nor coyote: we call it a coydog. Same with jackals and dingos. Domestic dogs are a subspecies of wolf (wolves are canis lupis, and domestic dogs are canis lupis familiaris.)

And the common ancestor that canis shares would have likely been able to interbreed with the common ancestor to vulpes (foxes), even though they can't now, being completely different animals.

If you accept the existence of a single common ancestor (more likely several common ancestors interbreeding) to canis and vulpes, then you accept all the biological mechanics necessary for there to have been a common ancestor to both canidae and felidae. Now, you'd have to go back quite far, to be sure; domestic dogs are more closely related to bears than they are to cats. Bears and dogs, in addition to pinnipeds (which includes seals), and musteloids (which includes otters, badgers, raccoons, etc.), are grouped under caniformia, or dog-like. The animals that fall under feliformia, or cat-like, include animals I'm sure you've never heard of, as well as cats, hyenas, and mongooses. Both groups share a common mammalian ancestor, categorized as carnivora.

All the children of any one generation of this carnivora, would have been the same species. But those children would have been very slightly different. The children of those children would have been still slightly different. This is the case in modern times. Now, give about 100 years, and the initial parents we started with will likely have several hundred direct descendents, each with a degree of genetic variance. Give 1,000 years, and they wouldn't recognize their descendents as related in any way. Give 1,000,000 years, and many of those descendents would have such vast genetic variance, that not only would interbreeding be impossible, but they'd not even look the same. Just as we don't look the same as our ancestors from 1,000,000 years ago.

Since you've never denied that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, with life appearing roughly 1-2 billion years ago(though there is still some debate about that), there's no reason why this can't extend far enough into the past.

If that's not enough, consider this: dogs are carnivorous, right? Well... not really, not anymore. Their diets nowadays consist of plenty of fruits and vegetables, which means that domestic dogs are, themselves, in a state of transition from full carnivore, to omnivore.
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
Your answer is overly simplistic. Odds are that a male and female dog will give rise to something that you'd classify as a dog, though there is a passing small possibility that something else, that would likely look like a dog could occur. In any case, the offspring is likely to have a mix of parental characteristics and may even contain a new mutation that contributes to a minor or even significant change. Large genetic changes are not thought to occur very often in a single generation, large changes take accumulations of small changes as well as reproductive isolation. There are many examples of populations that have accumulated sufficient genetic change so as to be unable (or unwilling) to reproduce with members of the population they were separated from.

There was a time, not many years ago, when creationists denied that new species (they called them "kinds" back then) could arise via evolutionary processes from parent species. Once it was demonstrated that in fact they could, the creationists scurried to change their definition from "species" synonymous with "kind" to "kind" meaning some higher level of taxonomy and demanded to see examples where these higher level (family, order, class, etc.) were breached in a single reproductive act. This is patently absurd and was never claimed by any evolutionist, it represented the "crock-a-duck" school of creationist idiocy, which was naught but a creationist designed and claimed strawman.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Your answer is overly simplistic. Odds are that a male and female dog will give rise to something that you'd classify as a dog, though there is a passing small possibility that something else, that would likely look like a dog could occur. In any case, the offspring is likely to have a mix of parental characteristics and may even contain a new mutation that contributes to a minor or even significant change. Large genetic changes are not thought to occur very often in a single generation, large changes take accumulations of small changes as well as reproductive isolation. There are many examples of populations that have accumulated sufficient genetic change so as to be unable (or unwilling) to reproduce with members of the population they were separated from.

There was a time, not many years ago, when creationists denied that new species (they called them "kinds" back then) could arise via evolutionary processes from parent species. Once it was demonstrated that in fact they could, the creationists scurried to change their definition from "species" synonymous with "kind" to "kind" meaning some higher level of taxonomy and demanded to see examples where these higher level (family, order, class, etc.) were breached in a single reproductive act. This is patently absurd and was never claimed by any evolutionist, it represented the "crock-a-duck" school of creationist idiocy, which was naught but a creationist designed and claimed strawman.

Indeed. I'm not a biologist, and biology isn't my field of nerdiness. Hence my simplistic answers.

Another problem that I realized with my answer is that there's an implication that carnivora, feliformia, and caniformia are themselves the common ancestor species, when they're not. I don't presently know how biologists would measure the emergence of a new order.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
There are different theories of taxonomy, each developed to serve a different purpose. For use here I'd suggest the Cladistic Taxonomy, which demands that each sub-member be fully a member of all of it's higher levels, this yields a method of grouping animals that makes use of lines of descent rather than structural similarities.

The exact distance needed to "attain" a new level is somewhat arbitrary, arguable and taxocentristic.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
There are different theories of taxonomy, each developed to serve a different purpose. For use here I'd suggest the Cladistic Taxonomy, which demands that each sub-member be fully a member of all of it's higher levels, this yields a method of grouping animals that makes use of lines of descent rather than structural similarities.

The exact distance needed to "attain" a new level is somewhat arbitrary, arguable and taxocentristic.

And for clarification, this is not a problem with the theory's validity, but rather the way in which we categorize various animals.
 

AndromedaRXJ

Active Member
Once it was demonstrated that in fact they could, the creationists scurried to change their definition from "species" synonymous with "kind" to "kind" meaning some higher level of taxonomy and demanded to see examples where these higher level (family, order, class, etc.)

And creationists are inconsistent with what they consider kinds and their taxonomic rank, because they define kinds based off of quick-glance superficial looks. Call_of_the_Wild for example, accepts birds as one kind, which are ranked taxonomically as a class with over 10,000 species. But he doesn't accept mammals as one kind, which is also a class containing roughly only half the number of species as birds.

He sees dogs and cats as a separate kind when both belong to the same order. But sees proboscidea, an order, as one kind. And then of course there's the issue with humans and other apes. So he has no problem seeing the kinship of a hummingbird, penguin and ostrich, which have dramatic differences, but can't see the similarities between humans and chimps, or a bear and a dog. But an eel and a stingray is perfectly okay since fish is one kind.

Dog kind...cat kind...fish kind...snake kind...bear kind..bird kind..kind, kind, kind.

Genesis 1:21 "So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind....verse 24.......God said "let the land producel iving creatures according to their kinds; livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, according to their kinds".
 
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cottage

Well-Known Member
I would also pleased to do it here, but I can't do it if I don't understand what you are saying. If you don't want to continue the conversation on another platform, we have nothing else to talk about on here.

That's quite ridiculous! My arguments are what they are and you don't understand them on here then how are going to understand them on any other 'platform'?



Again, the point is; I don't understand what you are saying. In fact, it seems downright nonsense. Yeah, we are in different time zones...which means absolutely nothing considering the fact that I recall being in Iraq, which is a completey different time zone than the states, and having phone conversations with my parents almost every single day. So in other words, where there is a will, there is a way...so don't give me this "time zone" nonsense.

‘Where there is a will there is a way’! So why do you presume I should be interested enough to make special arrangements, which do not suit me or may be an inconvenience, in order to have a private conservation with a stranger?


Because the current format isn't getting us anywhere. I don't understand what you are saying...plain and simple, so I figured a point by point, real-time platform is needed. Just when I think I successfully deciphered what you are saying, you tell me "thats not what I mean't" or something along those lines...and quite frankly, I am tired of it...and this has happened more than once.

That doesn’t wash with me at all! The ‘format’ is not a problem in the least; as a matter of fact it works very well. Whenever I’ve stumped you with a proposition or an argument, you respond with ‘I don’t get it’, ‘What are you talking about?’ in shouted capitals, thinly disguised insults, or your ubiquitous private messenger distraction. Do you really find it that difficult follow the very simple arguments I’ve given you, which may not be popular but are hardly original, have been around at least since the eighteen century and have even been postulated by contemporary philosophers?



There is a big difference in being interested, but unable too...and just not being interested...so which is it?

A conversation is a conversation...you fail to see why I want to continue in private, and I fail to see why a private conversation is such a big deal.

If you are unable to follow or understand my arguments on here, in proper sentences, with the premises laid out and the conclusions evident, then it seems to me that you will not understand them period.


Well, give them a transcript of the discussion for all I care. I am not interested in audiences...I am only interested in getting to the truth of the matter, but hey...if you aren't interested, that is fine..but your future posts to me are gonna fall on blind eyes.

With respect, you are not interested in ‘getting to the truth’ but only in bulking up your faith and confirming to yourself what it is you want to believe. And when you come across something that clearly counters your beliefs you respond with incredulity and bluster.

Anyway I’ll be here on the forum challenging your arguments and you are going to run away from me? I think not, but we’ll see.
 
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