Evolution has never been observed

[Tristesse]

Only point is that consciousness, wisdom, and intellect that enable us to theorise is unquestionable in the now and here. Whether it is uncreated software or not is a moot point. Consciosness is. And consciousness- wisdom that gives rise to intellect that gives rise to thoughts/concepts/profs/views of changing objects etc. itself is devoid of evolution.

Got any evidence behind that assertion?

 

[Tristesse]

So would empirical evidence account for the bible stating that is the word of God, that is how we know it is the word of God?'

Nope. Unless you also think the qu'ran is also the word of god. Or the vedas that mention a myriad of gods. Text alone cannot suffice as evidence for a claim of that magnitude.

If not, then please answer how perception of a physical self is able to 'test' for existence of a physical world?

Aw, but by your analogy isn't the world also just a perception? So, to rephrase your question. How can perception of a physical self be able to test for the perception of a physical world? It's a pretty simple answer, it's a method known as science.

 

[painted wolf]

Only point is that consciousness, wisdom, and intellect that enable us to theorise is unquestionable in the now and here. Whether it is uncreated software or not is a moot point. Consciosness is. And consciousness- wisdom that gives rise to intellect that gives rise to thoughts/concepts/profs/views of changing objects etc. itself is devoid of evolution.

How do you know it's devoid of evolution.... consciousness is a result of the activity of our cells (particularly in our brains) and our cells (and especially our brains) have certainly evolved.

We know that damage to these cells changes our consciousness.... from stopping us from making new memories to making us see and hear what isn't there to making us mix up our words in strange ways without realizing it... to totally changing our personalities.

wa:do

 

[idav]

If by "electrical" you mean a change in ion concentrations, then yes. It's not data in any way like binary data in a computer... but a change in ion concentrations inside and outside of individual cells.

Thoughts are actually patterns of cells lighting up in the brain. One pattern for example tells your arm to move a particular way, another is a memory.
Rhythmically firing neostriatal neurons in mo... [J Neurophysiol. 1999] - PubMed - NCBI
Differential activity patterns of putaminal neurons with inputs from the primary motor cortex and supplementary motor area in behaving monkeys
Yerkes -- Yerkes Researchers Discover Specific Pattern of Neural Activity Critical For Successful Memory Formation

All these cells are doing is producing action potentials by changing the concentration of ions inside them. Just that simple act lets me type this and you read it.

wa:do

Some of it is electrical which is why they call it electrochemical. The data transfers in a form of energy.

I can get a better understanding of the chemical process by watching how ants function through chemical communication. Their collective is similar to our structures at the basic level.

 

[idav]

hey rAma. Do you mean that there is no IDAV. It's spooky?

Like Matrix said. "there is no spoon"

 

[painted wolf]

This would be great example of what I was referring to before as reactive thinking. While the study has some fascinating points and interesting implications, the work (so far) is not demonstrating anything other than highly controlled studies on specific, pre-determined choices, which is rarely how we actually think, and is unrelated to creative thought. Perhaps someday there will be advanced studies that one can link to this sort of data, but we currently don't live in that world.

Probably sooner than you think.

All governed by thought. :yes:

Nope... we don't control the ion concentrations by thought... which is why they are so prone to go wonky. Even eating the wrong thing can irrevocably change how those ion concentrations work.

A perfect example is accidentally ingesting anything with domoic acid... this binds irreversibly with receptors in your brain and destroys your ability to form short term memories (or if in large enough quantities will kill you). No amount of thinking can change this once it happens.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Some of it is electrical which is why they call it electrochemical. The data transfers in a form of energy.

Electrochemical is the change in ion concentrations. Ions are electrically charged atoms. Mostly Na+
That is the "electrical" that is going on.

Check out Action Potentials for how changes in ion concentrations account for our "voltage".

I can get a better understanding of the chemical process by watching how ants function through chemical communication. Their collective is similar to our structures at the basic level.

Not really.
Unless you are studying ant neurons... but the Squid Giant Axon is much easier to look at.

wa:do

 

[atanu]

Got any evidence behind that assertion?

Your asking a question is a proof.

 

[atanu]

How do you know it's devoid of evolution.... consciousness is a result of the activity of our cells (particularly in our brains) and our cells (and especially our brains) have certainly evolved.

We know that damage to these cells changes our consciousness.... from stopping us from making new memories to making us see and hear what isn't there to making us mix up our words in strange ways without realizing it... to totally changing our personalities.

wa:do

Have you ever seen a product unravel its own cause? It is a wonky idea (i have borrowed that word).

This has been discussed many times. An electrical bulb if broken does not produce any light that does not prove that electricity is a property of the bulb.

Probably sooner than you think.

Nope... we don't control the ion concentrations by thought... which is why they are so prone to go wonky.

But we can control the wonkyness by our volition. By yoga, by meditation, by bio-feedback......

 

[painted wolf]

Have you ever seen a product unravel its own cause? It is a wonky idea (i have borrowed that word).

This has been discussed many times. An electrical bulb if broken does not produce any light that does not prove that electricity is a property of the bulb.

Electricity can be measured and produced without a light bulb. We can see and manipulate it outside of the light bulb.
We can do neither with consciousness. Indeed what we can see is how fragile it is and how bound to our neurons physical behavior.

But we can control the wonkyness by our volition. By yoga, by meditation, by bio-feedback......

You can't cure domoic acid amnesia by yoga, meditation or bio-feedback.

wa:do

 

[Acim]

What your saying just means we aren't aware of all our thoughts but it is beside the point of what precedes a thought.

And what you're saying just means that we are now becoming (scientifically) aware of how slow interpreted perception is in lieu of actual thought(s).

 

[Acim]

Aw, but by your analogy isn't the world also just a perception?

Conceivably, it depends what is meant by 'the world.'

So, to rephrase your question. How can perception of a physical self be able to test for the perception of a physical world? It's a pretty simple answer, it's a method known as science.

Then it is clearly not objective, and is based on circular logic / faith.

 

[Acim]

Nope... we don't control the ion concentrations by thought...

And yet, it is still manifested (or 'controlled') by thought.

 

[Acim]

A perfect example is accidentally ingesting anything with domoic acid... this binds irreversibly with receptors in your brain and destroys your ability to form short term memories (or if in large enough quantities will kill you). No amount of thinking can change this once it happens.

And this is falsifiable, how?

 

[atanu]

Electricity can be measured and produced without a light bulb. We can see and manipulate it outside of the light bulb.
We can do neither with consciousness. Indeed what we can see is how fragile it is and how bound to our neurons physical behavior.

Yes everything that can be measured is measurable because of existing awareness.

You can't cure domoic acid amnesia by yoga, meditation or bio-feedback.
wa:do

That is true - probably. The fact however reamins that brain patterns can be altered favourably by use of volition and the methods i specified. However, this matter is discussed elsewhere. We can continue debating there so as not to disturb this thread.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/philosophy/118799-origin-human-general-awareness.html

 

[idav]

And what you're saying just means that we are now becoming (scientifically) aware of how slow interpreted perception is in lieu of actual thought(s).

We've been aware for a while it is pretty obvious. There are lots of signs but it's beside the point. Your nuerons can't fathom it until it gets communication of it and it doesn't matter if we are conscious of these communications. We don't have to be aware of it for it to be considered thought.

 

[Acim]

We don't have to be aware of it for it to be considered thought.

And yet we are intelligently aware of it as communication. I deduce that to be based on thought that might be beyond perception (low level thought) from physical self (only). You may have an alternative belief that governs your understanding.

I'm okay with that, that our beliefs may be alternative understandings.

 

[idav]

And yet we are intelligently aware of it as communication. I deduce that to be based on thought that might be beyond perception (low level thought) from physical self (only).

I wouldn't figure much thought goes into the procoss of basic chemical reaction of elements. I've not heard whether cells have thoughts but my guess is no so I wouldn't call it communication exaclty.

 

[Tristesse]

Your asking a question is a proof.

A proof that questions can be asked?

 

[atanu]

A proof that questions can be asked?

Not to spoil this thread, we can discuss it elsewhere:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/philosophy/118799-origin-human-general-awareness.html