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Evolution, maybe someone can explain?

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
No. The worst possible communication is throwing hand grenades and launching rockets like in the Ukraine or Gaza.
Then what is it?
Do we communicate or this is just a stimulation?
Or you don't know?
Or is it something else?

You tell me for once..


Yes!!! This is why we must keep our models in sync with reality. If you believe in instinct you can't even see behavior.
Instinct drives behaviour my friend.
When something falls from the table and i see it in a second and my hand is there to catch it , then that is instinct.


I'm sure they are. But I maintain the biggest difference is that sparrow brains are in sync with reality while our brains are in sync with what the individual believes.
Untill we leave our belief aside and work with explenations , there is no progress.
We can think as an individual , and as a collective.
Sometimes individual alone can not make conclusions on its own but depends on the collective.
And vice-versa.

Sparrows aren't necessarily less conscious, intelligent, or aware they are merely programmed by logic where ours are programmed by the broca's area. All life other than homo omnisciencis shares a great deal in common.
They are less by the abstractions that you speak off all the time.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
I've seen this film before. I see all sorts of animals using all sorts of man made objects for numerous purposes.

When I was ten years old I had a dream I had sat still so long in a tree that all the animals forgot I was there. A couple of redwing blackbirds landed nearby and one asked the other "do you think it's time to tell humans yet that they are not the crown of creation?" Even then I suspected we are not so smart as we think we are. We merely use complex language to pass learning from generation to generation.
No need for humans.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
It is strange somehow , the land where i come from it has 5000 years of History.

I seriously doubt you can tell me one single event that occurred before 2000 BC. I'm not talking about individual rulers or the construction of some monolith that has no more mention than the king coming to visit (Menkarre).

Yes, we forgot 1200 years of history because like everything important it was recorded in Ancient Language. Even the story of the tower of babel was recorded in Ancient Language which can not be translated into English. Much of the Bible comes from Ancient Language. Much ancient writings are attempts to translate Ancient Language.

After 2000 BC all history was recorded in one or another of the pidgin languages that sprang up starting about 3300 BC and used by people who weren't smart enough to learn Ancient Language or had poor verbal skills. By 2000 BC there were no longer enough Ancient Language speakers to operate the state and the official language was changed causing mayhem and resulting in history being recorded in pidgin languages which can be translated in most instances .
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
There's no evidence about lots of things. Doesn't mean it never was there...in fact many records have been destroyed by fire or other calamities.

No writing at all survives from the great pyramid building age or earlier except for one word sentences and highly fragmentary Sumerian tablets.

The paper survives because there are blank scrolls but the writing has been destroyed.


It might be noted that within the last several years Merrer's Diary has been found from about 2740 BC but it is largely one word sentences as well and is probably written in a pidgin language. Apparently the number of AL speakers had already decreased sharply by this time since Merrer's position was fairly high (tug boat captain, I believe).
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There's no evidence about lots of things. Doesn't mean it never was there..
With no evidence and contrary to existing evidence there is no reason to believe.
.in fact many records have been destroyed by fire or other calamities.
It remains that when there is virtually zero evidence you have a problem. You cannot create the evidence for for an ancient Pentateuch when there was not even the Hebrew language. When you are considering the Genesis Creation account and Noah's Flood and the Tower of Babel you not only completely lack evidence. but the accounts are contrary to known history, Many other Kingdoms there is a great deal of evidence for their history lacking in the early history described in the Pentateuch.

Without the evidence you are arguing with faith only. In contrast the evidence for the sciences of evolution and the history of the earth is overwhelmingly documented by science, with the support of over 95%+ of scientists in the related fields and every major academic institutions in the world.
 
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Dimi95

Прaвославие!
I seriously doubt you can tell me one single event that occurred before 2000 BC.
Agriculture happend.

Yes, we forgot 1200 years of history because like everything important it was recorded in Ancient Language. Even the story of the tower of babel was recorded in Ancient Language which can not be translated into English.
Not 100% maybe , but close.
You confuse yourself maybe with the words 'translation' and 'transliterate'.
Do you think that transliteration is not usefull?
Why do you read the Bible then?

Much of the Bible comes from Ancient Language. Much ancient writings are attempts to translate Ancient Language.
You are saying them as they failed.
Again , why do you trust the Bible then?

After 2000 BC all history was recorded in one or another of the pidgin languages that sprang up starting about 3300 BC and used by people who weren't smart enough to learn Ancient Language or had poor verbal skills. By 2000 BC there were no longer enough Ancient Language speakers to operate the state and the official language was changed causing mayhem and resulting in history being recorded in pidgin languages which can be translated in most instances .
I don't know if i want to start about writing language.
They are not grammtically correct, at first.
We can see that in many examples like the Phoenician which is a one word - one sound language in principle.
Just because they were to them , doesn't mean they are now.

Otherwise everybody would learn language.
That's a different writing form that has different rules.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
We can think as an individual , and as a collective.

NO!!

Do we communicate or this is just a stimulation?

Communication in abstract language is never perfect. With simple declarative sentences between intimate people it can approach 100% but it is normally no better than 90% and can be 0%.

This is why chinese telephone works. People do not understand one another. I would guess you and I are less than 75%.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
To what evidence is it contrary?
I have cited many references of archeology, geology, paleontology evolution and biology and you choose to reject and ignore academic science., a rather bizarre set of metaphysical beliefs to justify a religious agenda.

It is hopeless to bother citing any more based on your stoic denial and intentional ignorance of science.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
Agriculture happend.

That's not recorded anywhere in history and is evidence that Darwin is wrong. The inventors did not induce a gradual change in species through survival of the fittest. It is obvious their theory was different. I have explained these differences many times.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Yes they evolve differences, but we don't classify ourselves as tetrapod like, we are tetrapods as are whales even though they only have two pods left and 5 year olds think they are fish. In terms of biology, they are fish-like, but they are still tetrapods. @leroy is the one who thinks you can evolve into a group without common evolutionary history. Maybe a better example with less linguistic ambiguity would be bats evolving into birds, (they might become bird like but not birds) even though they do share some ancestry at some point (tetrapods) but having diverged, they will never share the ancestry of birds as a group.
Yes , this seems ok for me to start.

Is it because of the notochords that are protecting their spinal cords?
And because they are the longitudinal structural element of chordates and of the early embryo of vertebrates?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That's not recorded anywhere in history and is evidence that Darwin is wrong. The inventors did not induce a gradual change in species through survival of the fittest. It is obvious their theory was different. I have explained these differences many times.
I have cited many references of archeology, geology, paleontology evolution and biology and you choose to reject and ignore academic science., a rather bizarre set of metaphysical beliefs to justify a religious agenda.

It is hopeless to bother citing any more based on your stoic denial and intentional ignorance of science.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Why do you read the Bible then?

I don't read it nearly so much as I should. I search it following leads about pyramids, consciousness, et al far more than I actually read it.

It is a remarkable document that contains much of ancient science and its metaphysics. It also provides numerous clues as to the nature of homo omnisciencis.

I believe much of it is literally true. The rest is probably based in history, science, or math but will never be understood.

Again , why do you trust the Bible then?

I don't have any "trust" in anything at all as I parse your word. I have no respect for opinion.

I have some "trust" perhaps in my premises but then I know they can be overturned by any experiment or even fact and logic. So far experiment and data are supporting them again and again. I make predictions and it comes to pass. This is very highly supportive of my beliefs, all of them.

You are saying them as they failed.

I believe it is impossible to translate Ancient Language. I can model AL to understand it but nobody will ever be able to translate it. Much of the writing from after 2000 BC are attempts at translation. Most or all of the translators before modern times KNEW they couldn't understand it. Modern translators have deluded themselves and the general public into believing the writing is incantation written by stinky footed bumpkins.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
have cited many references of archeology, geology, paleontology evolution and biology and you choose to reject and ignore academic science., a rather bizarre set of metaphysical beliefs to justify a religious agenda.

Again you can't cite one single fact to support your contention that the tower of babel didn't exist!!!!

Incredible!!!!!

Let me help you get started; Nobody knows of a collapsed tower big enough to reach heaven in Babel.

Incredible!

I don't know if it existed or not. But I can sure point to many places it could been and can sure speculate on exactly what the story in the Bible mightta meant.

Your belief in science seems to be absolute.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
Yes , we can.
Why do you want to study all of this wirh me then?

Communication in abstract language is never perfect.
Ok , but it is there , right?

With simple declarative sentences between intimate people it can approach 100% but it is normally no better than 90% and can be 0%.
So you want to do it with chance , right?
Which one do you choose outbof the three?

This is why chinese telephone works.
As every other.

People do not understand one another. I would guess you and I are less than 75%.
I disagree
I understand you
You need to show that you understand me.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
That's not recorded anywhere in history and is evidence that Darwin is wrong. The inventors did not induce a gradual change in species through survival of the fittest. It is obvious their theory was different. I have explained these differences many times.
corn-and-teosinte_f.jpg

BOTANICAL NAME:​

Zea mays parvaglumis or mexicana

HISTORICAL ORIGINS:​

About 9,000 years ago, humans began to interact with wild teosinte in the balsas River Valley of southern-central Mexico. Over several thousand years of seed stewardship our ancient ancestors developed domesticated corn and the thousands of different varieties that exist today.

CULINARY USES:​

Teosinte is not consumed widely. In Mexico the stalk is chewed for its sweet juices, reminiscent of sugar. Archaeological evidence suggests the sweet juice from the stalks of teosinte was consumed prior to the discovery of the grain. The hard outer casing of teosinte makes the dry grain inedible. It was a genetic mutation that caused this hard outer coating to disappear. Ancient plant breeders took advantage of this trait by saving and planting these kernels, essentially making corn what it is today.

SOCIO-CULTURAL IMPORTANCE:​

Teosinte is an extremely important crop, as it believed that the subspecies parviglumis is the wild progenitor of corn. About 9,000 years ago, teosinte grew wild, as a grass-like plant, with a grain in a tough shell that was dispersed only when ripe. About 9,000-6,000 years ago, ancient people began to develop parviglumis teosinte into a crop that more closely resembles what we know as corn. Its kernels started to grow without the tough shell, and humans domesticated this plant for its grain, changing the size and textures of the kernels. This mutation causing the loss of the shell meant that the plant could no longer grow wild in its current form, since the kernels were unprotected from predators such as birds. Through these interactions with humans, it is thought that corn developed into the plant it is now.

Teosinte has never grown in the American Southwest. Domesticated corn was grown in the Southwest by 4,000 years ago. As domesticated varieties of corn were moved from central Mexico throughout the Americas it cross-pollinated other subspecies of teosinte including Zea mays mexicana which is native to Northwest Mexico.

Farmers in Mexico and Central America still let the wild teosinte plants grow around the edges of their cornfields as it is believed that the teosinte makes the corn plants ‘stronger’. This is because the genetic transfer between wild and domesticated varieties diversifies the genetic code of the domesticated corn, reducing impacts of inbreeding and genetic narrowing. The pollen from teosinte can pollinate the silks of the domesticated corn because they are still very closely related. This diversity leads to healthier populations. Teosinte is widely used as a forage crop for cattle in Mexico and the seeds may be fed to other livestock such as chickens and pigs.

Teosinte is considered the mother of corn and therefore holds a very important place in indigenous culture and beliefs. For many indigenous societies of the Americas corn is considered the mother of all people and is the most important cultivated crop. The name teosinte is derived from the Nahuatl word tosintli which means sacred corn. Many indigenous peoples visiting the Native Seeds/SEARCH seed bank facility have honored teosinte. One memorable moment came from Martina, a young Zapotec teacher from Oaxaca. She began to cry when holding the precious teosinte seeds. She spoke of how her family and culture have stories about sacred teosinte, but she had never been able to see it. To hold it was something very precious to her.

CULTIVATION TECHNIQUES:​

Teosinte commonly grows wild in Southern Mexico, along stream sides and on hillsides, but is also found in waste-ground and along field boundaries. Teosinte plants do not produce flowers or the tassels until the shorter days of autumn, making it difficult to harvest seed in frost-prone areas in North America. Its natural range does not extend beyond southern Chihuahua.

This wild ancestor to domesticated corn shares many of the same traits as modern corn. However, the ears are small (2-3") with only 1 row of triangular shaped seeds. Plants will produce silks and tassels, but will be bushier with many branches. Each seed is enclosed by a very hard fruit case that protects it in the wild. Soak seeds overnight to aid in germination.

Meanwhile back in reality. Your strawman survival of the fittest "theory" has nothing to do with evolution or Darwin.
It is nothing more than a bastardization of Darwin's theory as propagated by Herbert Spencer.
This is documented history, your strawman owes more to religious zealotry than anything else.
That's not recorded anywhere in history and is evidence that Darwin is wrong. The inventors did not induce a gradual change in species through survival of the fittest. It is obvious their theory was different. I have explained these differences many times.

Social Darwinism​

Part of the Darwin exhibition.
More in Darwin
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Misusing Darwin's Theory​

Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection is entirely focused on an explanation of life's biological diversity. It is a scientific theory meant to explain observations about species. Yet some have used the theory to justify a particular view of human social, political, or economic conditions. All such ideas have one fundamental flaw: They use a purely scientific theory for a completely unscientific purpose. In doing so they misrepresent and misappropriate Darwin's original ideas.
One such distortion and misuse is the loose collection of ideologies grouped under the label of "Social Darwinism." Based largely on notions of competition and natural selection, Social Darwinist theories generally hold that the powerful in society are innately better than the weak and that success is proof of their superiority.
Darwin passionately opposed social injustice and oppression. He would have been dismayed to see the events of generations to come: his name attached to opposing ideologies from Marxism to unbridled capitalism, and to policies from ethnic cleansing to forced sterilization. Whether used to rationalize social inequality, racism, or eugenics, so-called Social Darwinist theories are a gross misreading of the ideas first described in the Origin of Species and applied in modern biology.
 

Dimi95

Прaвославие!
I don't read it nearly so much as I should. I search it following leads about pyramids, consciousness, et al far more than I actually read it.
Read Matthew 10:31
"You are worth more then many sparrows."

It is a remarkable document that contains much of ancient science and its metaphysics. It also provides numerous clues as to the nature of homo omnisciencis.
In the way of History.
Not in the way of Metaphysics.
Otherwise we don't need History.
Or do you think that in Social Science there is no difference in how we do experimentation?

I believe much of it is literally true. The rest is probably based in history, science, or math but will never be understood.
This is questionable.
The NT is however a different topic then the previous parts.
The amount of evidence is not the same.
Around 400 000 variants of differences within Greek and Latin manuscripts + Church Father letters.

I don't have any "trust" in anything at all as I parse your word. I have no respect for opinion.

I have some "trust" perhaps in my premises but then I know they can be overturned by any experiment or even fact and logic.So far experiment and data are supporting them again and again. I make predictions and it comes to pass. This is very highly supportive of my beliefs, all of them.
Let's just respect the thread at least and leave thoughts about the Bible for other discussions..
Is it possible?

I believe it is impossible to translate Ancient Language.
Painting is Ancient language.
We see it in caves 50 000 years old.


I can model AL to understand it but nobody will ever be able to translate it. Much of the writing from after 2000 BC are attempts at translation. Most or all of the translators before modern times KNEW they couldn't understand it. Modern translators have deluded themselves and the general public into believing the writing is incantation written by stinky footed bumpkins.
I really don't know how to answer this because it has nothing to do with Evolution.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
That's not recorded anywhere in history and is evidence that Darwin is wrong. The inventors did not induce a gradual change in species through survival of the fittest. It is obvious their theory was different. I have explained these differences many times.

Ancient theory of change in species is that unusual individual consciousness at bottlenecks caused speciation. It is not entirely clear that they believed all speciation not caused by mutation resulted from this as well. They probably did extrapolate what they knew to apply to all speciation but they would have been well aware that they didn't know. No Ancient textbook on biology survives. Indeed not one single sentence written before the end of the great pyramid building age survives from anywhere in the world. Again a possible exception is Merrer's Diary but there are no significant sentences in it and it is far more just a logbook than a proper diary. It might be akin to the logbook of the Edmund Fitzgerald; Unloaded at 2 dock then no further entries. You can not build a superstitious culture slowly evolving from cavemen on their path to the modern perfection of human beings. It does not support any Egyptological nor anthropological beliefs. Indeed it contradicts a couple of what were believed to be "facts" about the reign of Khufu. It does not even support the common belief that this ship transported casing stone to the Great Pyramid as it was finishing construction. It is too ambiguous to be seen as support. It doesn't support any of my theories either but then it doesn't contradict mine.

People don't understand any longer that everything that exists is unique and everything comes into and passes out of existence except for everything that has never existed and never will. Such things are axiomatic to other living things. We want to create categories and taxonomies as mnemonics and then forget that they are arbitrary, ephemeral, and abstract. Reality in binary, not analog. Consciousness is binary as well except in humans where it is a product of beliefs and language.

Darwin simply reasoned his way to a theory and our science is dependent on experiment.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Yes , this seems ok for me to start.

Is it because of the notochords that are protecting their spinal cords?
And because they are the longitudinal structural element of chordates and of the early embryo of vertebrates?
All of these are part of the common ancestry of fish bats and birds I believe though you are far more knowledgeable of specifics than I am (no formal Bio education) but as I understand it, phylogeny, and Darwin's tree of life is the representation of ancestor kin relationships based on Darwin's theory of descent with modification and as such phylogenetic groups share common ancestry up until the most recent divergences into individual species. Once you have left an ancestral/kin relationship you cannot return.

The simple point and point of phylogeny is that no matter how much your second cousin looks like you, he can never become your brother. @ Leroy wishes to claim otherwise by equivocating a simplistic view based on implicit denial of the theory and sloppy use of language.

return question, you referred to three equivalent aspects of Nitrate, were you referring to graphical bond representations or something more nuanced?
 
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