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Evolution My ToE

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You predicted 'it'? That doesn't say much. Did you predict other antecedent pronouns as well?
Yes, many.

Just the other day I told some guy that he would bring me a burger with french fries(*).
And sure enough, 10 minutes later, there he was... bringing me a burger with french fries.
I mean, come on... Check mate!



(*) the chauvinistic pig in me wants to point out that french fries are actually belgian. Belgium has 2 national languages: dutch and french. Back in the day, the "elite" of the country spoke french. The dutch were pretty much ruled by the french, with a long history of being oppressed by the pre-belgium french (the actual French). Nowadays, the dutch part has outgrown the french economically and so the tables have turned a bit. In any case, the french in "french fries" thus refers to the language french of the belgians that developed / invented fries. Fries are pretty much a national pride here. I don't think there is a single town here without a so-called "Frietkot" or "Frituur" which translates as "fries shed" or "fries bar". You'll find these just about everywhere:


upload_2020-4-22_12-4-45.png



upload_2020-4-22_12-5-19.png


upload_2020-4-22_12-6-57.png



So there you go. At least something interesting was mentioned in this conversation. :)




Wait, what was I talking about?
....
Ow right, my prediction.... so I told this guy he would bring me a burger with french fries and he brought me this

upload_2020-4-22_12-10-17.png


Needless to say, that was way to many fries!
But hey, that's how we belgians roll! ;-)
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Gravity can keep planets in orbit? But of course, you don't believe in an intelligent "Lawmaker," do you?

You realise that we humans are the "lawmakers" right?
Laws aren't discovered under a rock. Laws are created by us as part of our attempt at defining how reality works.

But then viruses said to be evolving still remain as viruses insofar as you know, isn't that true.

Yes, in evolution theory, it is impossible to grow out of your ancestry.
Meaning that you and your lineage are forever "stuck" in the clade that your ancestors belonged to.

So to say of ANYTHING that evolves "but hey, it's still an X", is redundant as that is the expectation.
Subspecies of homo sapiens will still be homo sapiens.
Subspecies of primate (like homo sapiens and chimpansees) will still be primates.
Subspecies of mammal (like homo sapiens, chimps and whales) will still be mammals
Subspecies of tetrapod (like homo sapiens, chimps, whales and dino's) will still be terapods
Subspecies of vertebrates (like homo sapiens, chimps, whales, dino's and salmon) will still be vertebrates
Subspecies of eukaryote (like homo sapiens, chimps, whales, dino's, salmon and pinetrees) will still be eukaryotes.

See?
From eukaryote all the way to the specific species homo sapiens, chimps, whales, dino's, salmon and pinetrees, not a single time did any organism outgrow or out-evolve its ancestral clade.

The first vertebrates "were still" eukaryotes
The first tetrapods "were still" eukaryotes and vertebrates
The first mammals "were still" eukaryotes,vertebrates and tetrapods
The first primates "were still" eukaryotes,vertebrates, tetrapods and mammals
The first homo sapiens "were still" eukaryotes,vertebrates, tetrapods, mammals and primates

And this is true for every species ever encountered and examined. Both extant and extinct. And the nested hierarchical DNA patterns of the many many genomes sequenced, completely match this pattern.

So yeah.....

I hope it is clear now how the objection of "but it's still a virus" or as hovind says it "it's still a dog mmkay!", isn't so much an objection as it is a display of ignorance on what evolution theory actually says.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Gravity can keep planets in orbit?
Yes.

But of course, you don't believe in an intelligent "Lawmaker," do you?
Only for human societies. And I'm not convinced about the 'intelligent' part there.

But then viruses said to be evolving still remain as viruses insofar as you know, isn't that true.

Yes, and that is what I would expect to happen, given evolution. Viruses do evolve. Why do you think they need to evolve into non-viruses for evolution to be correct?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
That gravity can keep planets in orbit is not quite the same as the conjecture that evolution can change the form of living things over many generations. Form, like what? Like a cat becoming a dog, or vice versa? What forms are you talking about?

Gravity is physics, evolution is biology, so that is one difference.

No, we do NOT expect a cat to become a dog. Or, for that matter, any modern species to become any other modern species.

What is expected is that species change over time to adapt to their environment. Occasionally, populations split and the subpopulations change in different ways. Over many generations, the small changes add up to give big changes. But the descendants will still have many of the features of the ancestors. They won't be 'totally new'. But they will be different.

Even many evolution deniers allow for changes inside of 'kinds'. So, for example, a change from an original type of cat to the variety we see today: houecats, tigers, lions, cougars, etc. We can see the family resemblance even today and yes, they all had a common ancestor.

Similarly, there are a wide variety of different types of bears. Black bears, polar bears, sun bears, etc. And we can all see the family resemblance between them (which is why we call them all bears). And I don't think it is too much to say they all had a common ancestor.

So, the common ancestor of the cats was a mammal, it was a carnivore (a type of mammal). And while it shared many characteristics with modern cats, it did not share ll of them (size, coloration, etc). It looked something like a merger between the cat species we had today.

Similarly for bears. The ancestor would have had characteristics of bears, but not all of them. It would have looked similar to a merger of the modern bears.

But what we can realize is that the original cat and the original bear weren't all that different from each other. And the same can be said for the original canine and the original versions of the other carnivores. And the similarity at that stage *looks* like a family resemblance of the type that cats have today (or bears, or canines).

And so we can look for a common ancestor of the mammalian carnivores. And guess what? We find such in the fossil record: something that has characteristics of all the carnivore families, but not identical to any of them. A species that has 'family similarity' to all the 'original modern families'. And that was the population that was the last common ancestor of all modern mammalian carnivores.

We can do the same for other families of mammals: the horse family (horses, donkeys, zebras, etc) are clearly related. I doubt you would have difficulty seeing they can have a common ancestor. And we can then look at other animal families and see how *those* families are related.

THIS is evolution: a change in species over time, with populations splitting to be come new species. All descendants have characteristics of the ancestor species, but they have also changed to be individual species. This happens in response the differences in the environment. And it produces a tree-like structure for the inheritance: an original carnivore splits into species that will be the original feline, ursines, and canines (as well as others). Those then split to gives the modern cats, bears, and dogs.

Many deniers of evolution, with their notion of 'kind' actually accept a large amount of evolution: between different types of cats, for example. They agree on the last few leaves of the trees, but fail to see that the ancestors were also related and had a common ancestor.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
That's you. I've met people who don't believe in global warming or the Bible.

I rely on evidence, not on particular books or even particular people. Look at what is testable and has evidence in its favor.

Exodus does not. We would expect a population of the size described to show a LOT of remains in the small area they were supposed to be moving around in. We would *expect* to see reports of slaves in Egypt and of an invasion after that into Canaan.

And we *don't* see that evidence. In fact, we see evidence that shows exactly the opposite: the original Israelis did NOT come out of Egypt: they came from the mountains. The sory as told in the Bible mentions places that didn't yet exist when the Exodus was supposed to have happened and gets many of the details wrong. That is one reason we know that the Exodus account was written long after the time when it claims to be about and was a myth for building the nation, not actual history.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Hmm I doubt you've read the references you claim prove what you claim. Maybe I'll go to each one and ask you if you've read them. :)
Of course I've read them. Why accuse me of such a thing?

I think you're just projecting here, because you haven't taken the time to read them. Hence your repetitious questions. ;)
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
There is nothing I saw in the following article to suggest that viruses 'evolve' to anything but viruses. Maybe there is, but I didn't see it, maybe you can show it with certainty. But I found Nothing. Zilch, to show that viral matter evolves to anything but different viral matter.
Viral evolution - Wikipedia
Please point out something there that shows that viruses evolve to a form other than another form of virus, mutated of course, if you do see it.
Why do you think that viruses need to change into something else in order for evolution to have occurred???
 

dad

Undefeated
Yes, many.

Just the other day I told some guy that he would bring me a burger with french fries(*).
And sure enough, 10 minutes later, there he was... bringing me a burger with french fries.
I mean, come on... Check mate!



(*) the chauvinistic pig in me wants to point out that french fries are actually belgian. Belgium has 2 national languages: dutch and french. Back in the day, the "elite" of the country spoke french. The dutch were pretty much ruled by the french, with a long history of being oppressed by the pre-belgium french (the actual French). Nowadays, the dutch part has outgrown the french economically and so the tables have turned a bit. In any case, the french in "french fries" thus refers to the language french of the belgians that developed / invented fries. Fries are pretty much a national pride here. I don't think there is a single town here without a so-called "Frietkot" or "Frituur" which translates as "fries shed" or "fries bar". You'll find these just about everywhere:


View attachment 39194


View attachment 39195

View attachment 39196


So there you go. At least something interesting was mentioned in this conversation. :)




Wait, what was I talking about?
....
Ow right, my prediction.... so I told this guy he would bring me a burger with french fries and he brought me this

View attachment 39198

Needless to say, that was way to many fries!
But hey, that's how we belgians roll! ;-)
Thanks for your version of what science is all about.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why do you think that viruses need to change into something else in order for evolution to have occurred???
So please explain what the origin of viruses is. Also, and more importantly, I think, would be the branch of the tree supposedly that viruses are in. And what else that branch holds. Or maybe, perhaps, viruses came about somehow and evolved only into another type of virus? Maybe they didn't 'become' anything else but -- a virus.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Of course I've read them. Why accuse me of such a thing?

I think you're just projecting here, because you haven't taken the time to read them. Hence your repetitious questions. ;)
I don't mean you read the citations. I mean, did you read the actual articles themselves? If so, I give you credit, and I'd like to see what you understand from them.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I rely on evidence, not on particular books or even particular people. Look at what is testable and has evidence in its favor.

Exodus does not. We would expect a population of the size described to show a LOT of remains in the small area they were supposed to be moving around in. We would *expect* to see reports of slaves in Egypt and of an invasion after that into Canaan.

And we *don't* see that evidence. In fact, we see evidence that shows exactly the opposite: the original Israelis did NOT come out of Egypt: they came from the mountains. The sory as told in the Bible mentions places that didn't yet exist when the Exodus was supposed to have happened and gets many of the details wrong. That is one reason we know that the Exodus account was written long after the time when it claims to be about and was a myth for building the nation, not actual history.
Here's what I say to that -- there are reports and lineages listed of ancient kings. Much of which cannot be trusted. When I mentioned an artifact found in the wilderness by recent excavators, it was pushed aside by those here, as if it was prejudicial.
Also, I would say there are those monarchs or leaders who would not write down an insulting history towards them.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I rely on evidence, not on particular books or even particular people. Look at what is testable and has evidence in its favor.

I wasn't Exodus does not. We would expect a population of the size described to show a LOT of remains in the small area they were supposed to be moving around in. We would *expect* to see reports of slaves in Egypt and of an invasion after that into Canaan.

And we *don't* see that evidence. In fact, we see evidence that shows exactly the opposite: the original Israelis did NOT come out of Egypt: they came from the mountains. The sory as told in the Bible mentions places that didn't yet exist when the Exodus was supposed to have happened and gets many of the details wrong. That is one reason we know that the Exodus account was written long after the time when it claims to be about and was a myth for building the nation, not actual history.
I wasn't there. There are various sides people, including researchers and scholars, take on these issues. I take the book of Exodus as a truthful account. As far as remains go, the Israelites were told to bury their excrement. Their health laws in the wilderness were really good ones. Also, they didn't leave too much behind when moving from place to place. It makes more and more sense as I think about the history.
The Exodus: Fact or Fiction?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I rely on evidence, not on particular books or even particular people. Look at what is testable and has evidence in its favor.

I wasn't Exodus does not. We would expect a population of the size described to show a LOT of remains in the small area they were supposed to be moving around in. We would *expect* to see reports of slaves in Egypt and of an invasion after that into Canaan.

And we *don't* see that evidence. In fact, we see evidence that shows exactly the opposite: the original Israelis did NOT come out of Egypt: they came from the mountains. The sory as told in the Bible mentions places that didn't yet exist when the Exodus was supposed to have happened and gets many of the details wrong. That is one reason we know that the Exodus account was written long after the time when it claims to be about and was a myth for building the nation, not actual history.
I wasn't there. There are various sides people, including researchers and scholars, take on these issues. I take the book of Exodus as a truthful account. As far as remains go, the Israelites were told to bury their excrement. Their health laws in the wilderness were really good ones. Also, they didn't leave too much behind when moving from place to place. It makes more and more sense as I think about the history.
The Exodus: Fact or Fiction?
 

dad

Undefeated
Exodus does not. We would expect a population of the size described to show a LOT of remains in the small area they were supposed to be moving around in. We would *expect* to see reports of slaves in Egypt and of an invasion after that into Canaan.
God was there. He does not leave messes. One example is the manna that fell each day. They were to take only what they needed and the remains disappeared!
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes.


Only for human societies. And I'm not convinced about the 'intelligent' part there.



Yes, and that is what I would expect to happen, given evolution. Viruses do evolve. Why do you think they need to evolve into non-viruses for evolution to be correct?
You know, it's interesting, because even Einstein believed in his way that there is a "God" who doesn't make mistakes or who plays haphazardly with the universe. Based on his religious upbringing or lack of it, and his propensity for science and musings, he was not one to just accept things. His idea that God is not playing dice with things or laws, such as motion, gravity, asteroids, and so forth, is something I think about and agree with. But since I'm not God, I read the Bible, believe it, and do not profess to understand it all. For instance, I understand that before God began creating things on and for this earth, it was formless and void. Genesis 1:2 -" Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. "
It probably looked like Mars or the moon.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why do you think that viruses need to change into something else in order for evolution to have occurred???
So are you saying it's possible that some items, forms, organisms, stay in the same form more or less for billions of years without evolving (or mutating) into another form? Bonobos came from (evolved?) from a relative ancestor, didn't they? And then so do evolutionists believe that humans came from (evolved) from another ancestral origin. But bacteria and viruses -- ?? stay in those formats...is that right?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes.


Only for human societies. And I'm not convinced about the 'intelligent' part there.



Yes, and that is what I would expect to happen, given evolution. Viruses do evolve. Why do you think they need to evolve into non-viruses for evolution to be correct?
Again, you know, it's odd, that 'laws' made by human societies often cannot be, and are not, followed. Despite human intelligence, so to speak.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You know, it's interesting, because even Einstein believed in his way that there is a "God" who doesn't make mistakes or who plays haphazardly with the universe. Based on his religious upbringing or lack of it, and his propensity for science and musings, he was not one to just accept things. His idea that God is not playing dice with things or laws, such as motion, gravity, asteroids, and so forth, is something I think about and agree with. But since I'm not God, I read the Bible, believe it, and do not profess to understand it all. For instance, I understand that before God began creating things on and for this earth, it was formless and void. Genesis 1:2 -" Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. "
It probably looked like Mars or the moon.

The problem is that Einstein was *proved* wrong. He suggested a thought experiment to show why he thought quantum mechanics to be wrong. He argued that the prediction of quantum theory would violate intuition and could not be correct.

Well, the experiment was actually done. And the results agreed with the quantum mechanical prediction.

The universe *is* probabilistic at the fundamental level.

I would also point out that Einstein didn't believe in a personal God and actually thought the concept to be ridiculous.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
So are you saying it's possible that some items, forms, organisms, stay in the same form more or less for billions of years without evolving (or mutating) into another form? Bonobos came from (evolved?) from a relative ancestor, didn't they? And then so do evolutionists believe that humans came from (evolved) from another ancestral origin. But bacteria and viruses -- ?? stay in those formats...is that right?
I'm asking you a question.

Creatures don't have to turn into entirely different creatures for evolution to have occurred.
 
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