Evolution of Human

[metis]

Evolutionists believe those creatures have been evolved by natural effects,IOW there was no prior plan or design for them to evolve to what they are nowadays,we may say a continuous successful coincidences that brought modern human to life,whereas creationists believe that those creatures were related because the creator was one.

The above is not true as there are a great many "evolutionists" that believe in God. For example, the world's greatest expert on Homo erectus several decades ago was Fr. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a Catholic theologian and philosopher.

In anthropology, we don't inject God into our research but neither do we deny the possibility of theistic causation.

 

[zenzero]

Friend FearGod,

When did human intelligence evolve,IOW since when humans were able to think and talk ?

Sorry did not carry a calendar or watch to record the exact time, lol!

However this maybe what you enquire:

By 2.4 million years ago Homo habilis had appeared in East Africa: the first known human species, and the first known to make stone tools.

source: Evolution of human intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Love & rgds

 

[FearGod]

In science, we use the word "theory" in more than one way, and how it's used in the ToE, Gravitational Theory, Continental Drift Theory, etc., means a collection of hypotheses, axioms, and a body of research all dealing with the same general topic. As far as ToE being a "fact", yes it is considered as such because, not only is the evidence overwhelming, but we also see it being played out today in terms that are generally predictable.



Probably, according to the evidence. A reminder that when we say "ancestor", this is to be taken as being plural.



No, the other way around. The environment changes and then we react to that change. For a couple of example, the Incas that live up in the Andes have roughly a 30% larger lung capacity that the rest of us, and the Inuit tend to have more of a barrel-chest configuration that helps them retain heat better.



It probably developed after the split, in all likelihood.



No evidence of that as these traits seemingly developed later along the human line, but the ape line also evolved as well, but it's much more difficult tracing their evolution since they preferred the forest areas where rain and humidity is much higher, which is not conducive to fossilization.



See above.

Your argument is irrational and not convincing at all,kind of guessing and speculation which proves that what you got is just a blind faith and not a good science.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Your argument is irrational and not convincing at all,kind of guessing and speculation which proves that what you got is just a blind faith and not a good science.

LOL...so wait are you a biologist? What evidence do you have the contrary?

You realize the entire basis of your arguement is on faith right? That even if there was a plan it doesn't necessarily validate the existence of your god and even further your entire argument of design implies that there is some greater meaning to the existence of humans which would derive from bias more so than objectivity...

Your qualm with evolution has little to do with science as I'm sure you have neither the education nor background to readily argue against it (such as your previous posts has shown), but more to do as it is against your faith. Which is fine defend it as such. Your faith does not include the evolution of man and you cannot believe it on a theological basis but do not slander science or in this case libel science by saying that evolution is not good science.

 

[FearGod]

Actually, we do see it happening in front of our eyes, and you might consider Googling "speciation" that can link you to scientific sites that cover this.

How come that you can see evolution of humans is happening,would you please show examples and references for any proof that humans is still evolving.

Secondly, evolution is not based on "faith" but on evidence, and the evidence for evolution is overwhelming. BTW, are your religious beliefs based on "blind faith"? Just curious.

First i ain't a blind believer and secondly evidences for creation are overwhelming to me than evolution which is based on nonsense,as i'll never believe that a good job can be achieved without a good plan,it is rubbish.

Thirdly, most mutations either are neutral or are negative, but it's the minority of real or potentially beneficial mutations that create the variation in the gene pool for other factors to kick in.

Mutations are undirected,and as we know that they are the main cause of diversity among the organisms,so it is really disgusting and a big lie to show that randomness is one factor for our existence.

Take for example the software programs,imagine those fixed codes that give instructions will change randomly,what the result will be,the program will fail to work,it is very simple,no plan,nothing can work successfully.

What you have is a blind faith on evolution,but i still believe on a planned evolution which is controlled by a creator.

[youtube]8tyVVlRw6hU[/youtube]
THE EVOLUTIONIST'S WORST NIGHTMARE (DNA) - YouTube

 

[metis]

Your argument is irrational and not convincing at all,kind of guessing and speculation which proves that what you got is just a blind faith and not a good science.

Well, I know it won't likely be convincing to you, but it certainly is not based on any kind of "blind faith" and you're totally off base by saying that it's not "good science". The vast majority of scientists worldwide well know that there has been an evolutionary process and that humans have been involved in it.

Matter of fact, this should be good old plain common sense even if someone knew nothing about the process. Why? Because everything appears to change over time, so why should one suspect that this doesn't apply to plants, animals, and humans?

So, let me ask you this: is your belief in God "rational" and not prone to "guessing and speculation"? Can you provide us with objective evidence from a scientific source, and not a theological one, that provides evidence that God or Gods can be proved to exist with certainty?

Just to make myself clear, I am not saying there is no God or Gods, btw.

 

[FearGod]

The above is not true as there are a great many "evolutionists" that believe in God. For example, the world's greatest expert on Homo erectus several decades ago was Fr. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a Catholic theologian and philosopher.

In anthropology, we don't inject God into our research but neither do we deny the possibility of theistic causation.

But when you say that mutation was randomness,then doesn't that mean denying or rejecting any designer to be involved.

 

[outhouse]

Your argument is irrational and not convincing at all,kind of guessing and speculation which proves that what you got is just a blind faith and not a good science.

Refute this. Evolution is now fact.

This is viewed a truth for most of the educated world, and contains substantiated facts to back their position.

IAP - IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution

We agree that the following evidence-based facts
about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:
•In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
•Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
•Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
•Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.

 

[metis]

How come that you can see evolution of humans is happening,would you please show examples and references for any proof that humans is still evolving.

Are you wearing a watch? Look at just the hour hand and tell me if it's moving? Now, if you had no clue how watches and clocks work, you probably would swear that the hour hand is stationary. But you could tell that it isn't stationary after a period of time has elapsed.

When dealing with the evolution of large organisms, the evolutionary pace is much slower than with single-celled organisms because the former doesn't reproduce as quickly. What can take place with single-celled organisms in a month may take hundreds of thousands of year with larger organisms.

First i ain't a blind believer and secondly evidences for creation are overwhelming to me than evolution which is based on nonsense,as i'll never believe that a good job can be achieved without a good plan,it is rubbish.

Exactly what are those "secondary evidences", iyo? And who said that evolution cannot be "planned"? Not I, nor does the ToE.

Mutations are undirected,and as we know that they are the main cause of diversity among the organisms,so it is really disgusting and a big lie to show that randomness is one factor for our existence.

If you were to be correct, then pretty much most to just about all geneticists would disagree with me and support you. Is this the case? Absolutely not as many polls have shown. In anthropology, we work hand-in-hand with geneticists because they are more specialized than we are in that area.

Take for example the software programs,imagine those fixed codes that give instructions will change randomly,what the result will be,the program will fail to work,it is very simple,no plan,nothing can work successfully.

Who's programming the info., and where are they deriving it from? After all, "garbage in, garbage out" is always a danger. Again, if you were correct, physicists should mostly support you and not I, but the exact opposite is true according to the many polls that have been taken.

What you have is a blind faith on evolution,but i still believe on a planned evolution which is controlled by a creator.

I'm not saying or implying that there is no Creator, but you don't seem to understand that the ToE doesn't negate the hypothetical possibility of there being a creator. To me, it seems that someone or some source is saying that the ToE is something that we know in science that it's not.

So, you say you do believe in a "planned evolution", but that seemingly goes against what else you've posted dealing with evolution, so could you please clarify this? My response earlier in this post is based on my perception that you totally oppose the ToE, but yet you seemingly are not opposed to it if you take it for what it actually says.

 

[Willamena]

How come that you can see evolution of humans is happening,would you please show examples and references for any proof that humans is still evolving.

The evolution from rural farmers to techno-food producers.

 

[metis]

But when you say that mutation was randomness,then doesn't that mean denying or rejecting any designer to be involved.

Not necessarily. Let me give you an example.

A baby is born with a serious mutation that causes it to have serious defects. Did God plan for that baby to be born that way? Is this what God wants, iyo?

Or one can look at it another way, namely that something went wrong genetically, thus the baby was born with serious defects, but that this was not ordained by God. Does that mean there is no God? No, just that maybe God doesn't plan every little thing that happens.

Therefore, is it at least hypothetically possible that God may have started the "clock" and let it run on its own, but not necessarily in a perfect fashion. In Judaism, there's a commentary that God purposely did not finish all of creation so that we could make Earth our own and not just being puppets with God pulling every single little string.

 

[Ouroboros]

Fossils tell there were different kinds of creatures living on earth millions of years ago and some have physical and genetic similarities to modern humans.

They had a lot of similarities and many differences. The differences were in turn similar to the Pan genus (apes). The similarities to humans are too close to be ignored, and the similarities to the apes are too close to be ignored as well.

Evolutionists believe those creatures have been evolved by natural effects,IOW there was no prior plan or design for them to evolve to what they are nowadays,we may say a continuous successful coincidences that brought modern human to life,whereas creationists believe that those creatures were related because the creator was one.

You Creationists believe that God created 10 or more different kinds of humans?

We are developed from liquid forms to humans in the mother's womb,creation doesn't mean that God should use his hands and screwdrivers to make us.

Right.

God used Evolution to create us. So, that means both creationism by evolution and evolution are equally true.

 

[metis]

The evolution from rural farmers to techno-food producers.

Another example, with this one being more physical, is our overbite, which occurred roughly around 20,000 or so years ago with most Hss populations.

Go look in the mirror and smile with your teeth together as they would be naturally. Notice how your top teeth mostly overlap your bottom teeth. Prior to that general date, most Hss upper and lower incisors almost, but not quite, met end to end. Obviously, the transition was gradual, so I'm not using the 20,000 as some sort of magical date.

 

[FearGod]

Well, I know it won't likely be convincing to you, but it certainly is not based on any kind of "blind faith" and you're totally off base by saying that it's not "good science". The vast majority of scientists worldwide well know that there has been an evolutionary process and that humans have been involved in it.

Matter of fact, this should be good old plain common sense even if someone knew nothing about the process. Why? Because everything appears to change over time, so why should one suspect that this doesn't apply to plants, animals, and humans?

So, let me ask you this: is your belief in God "rational" and not prone to "guessing and speculation"? Can you provide us with objective evidence from a scientific source, and not a theological one, that provides evidence that God or Gods can be proved to exist with certainty?

Just to make myself clear, I am not saying there is no God or Gods, btw.

Again,i am not against evolution,and i agree that fossils are evidences for the evolution process but i believe the process to be a guided one and not randomly happening.

My thread isn't about who is God or which religion is the right one,but what make sense to me and maybe to other theists that this universe should have a creator,regardless of who is that creator.

 

[metis]

Again,i am not against evolution,and i agree that fossils are evidences for the evolution process but i believe the process to be a guided one and not randomly happening.

My thread isn't about who is God or which religion is the right one,but what make sense to me and maybe to other theists that this universe should have a creator,regardless of who is that creator.

OK, then we have no argument, nor is there any argument that you should have with the ToE, so thanks for the clarification.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Again,i am not against evolution,and i agree that fossils are evidences for the evolution process but i believe the process to be a guided one and not randomly happening.

My thread isn't about who is God or which religion is the right one,but what make sense to me and maybe to other theists that this universe should have a creator,regardless of who is that creator.

But it's not randomly happening...because mutations are not evolution. Mutations happen either they are neutral or they are detrimental that the being doesn't live to reproduce. The neutral ones are the ones that natural selection works on. By process of the environment. Not to mention a species has a say in it's process of evolving as well. So it's not at all random the way you are using the term random.

 

[Ouroboros]

How come that you can see evolution of humans is happening,would you please show examples and references for any proof that humans is still evolving.

In average, every human being on this planet at this moment has about 50 unique mutations. That's the statistical part of it. Exactly what kind of mutations you have or I have are unknown.

There are many modern mutations that are hereditary.

Evolution doesn't go overnight. It's not immediately visible or noticeable to the outside world. Sometimes it is, but most of the time it's a matter of very small changes through many generations.

First i ain't a blind believer and secondly evidences for creation are overwhelming to me than evolution which is based on nonsense,as i'll never believe that a good job can be achieved without a good plan,it is rubbish.

The theory of evolution started with Christians trying to prove the flood and creationism about 200 years ago. They failed and discovered that the world had evolved. So no, the evidence supports evolution, both geological and biological, not creationism.

Mutations are undirected,and as we know that they are the main cause of diversity among the organisms,so it is really disgusting and a big lie to show that randomness is one factor for our existence.

Mutations are undirected, yes, but it's more complex than that. Most of the time, the description of evolution is very simplified. Mutations v selection. But there's more to it than that. For instance, mutations can be shared to some degree. And it's also a mosaic evolution, not linear. Selection is not only the "fittest" but you also have sexual selection and bottlenecks. And it's not really select for the fittest but rather selection against the unfittest in many cases.

Take for example the software programs,imagine those fixed codes that give instructions will change randomly,what the result will be,the program will fail to work,it is very simple,no plan,nothing can work successfully.

Well... except for when the program has been setup to change and modify itself.

One example is mutating computer viruses. They exist. They were written to change themselves and spread.

What you have is a blind faith on evolution,but i still believe on a planned evolution which is controlled by a creator.

I was a blind believer in creationism for 30 years.

I'm now a firm believer based on the evidence that I did see and study in anthropology class some years back. I never had that evidence for anything regarding creationism. The difference is shocking.

 

[Ouroboros]

Again,i am not against evolution,and i agree that fossils are evidences for the evolution process but i believe the process to be a guided one and not randomly happening.

Europeans have a unique gene that allows them to drink milk as adults. The lactate producing gene arrived somewhere in Turkey about 10,000 years ago based on genetic evidence. It's hereditary. I have it. But there are people in the world the do not.

Hypertrichosis is a mutation that can happen randomly, and is hereditary. It's also called the werewolf syndrome.

There are many more like these. I don't have time to list them all and explain each and everyone of them why they are beneficial or detrimental and how and where and why they mutated.

Here's a key though. We share a huge amount of unique mutations with the chimps. Mutations that only humans and chimpanzees have but not other apes. The chances of that happening by chance is extremely low. But the chances of that we are related and that's why we share them are extremely high. This is not a belief, but math.

My thread isn't about who is God or which religion is the right one,but what make sense to me and maybe to other theists that this universe should have a creator,regardless of who is that creator.

What makes sense to me is to realize that the world, nature, reality, universe, etc is the Creator. That's how the true Creator works.

And what we perceive as random might not be, or it might be, it's neither here nor there to me because this is it. This is how the world is.

In another view, it seems like nature itself is progressing towards life and perhaps even intelligence constantly through trial and error. It's a guided process, but through a very crooked road. Or put it this way, if our Universe is Fine Tuned for life, then the conclusion is that life should exist everywhere. The universe should constantly strive towards life, or the "fine tune" is off tune.

--edit

Just remembered, there's a mutation where a person is born with extra fingers and is a genetic and hereditary defect. It's easily fixed through surgery, but people with the condition don't have to, they can live a full life with 6 fingers. I haven't checked in when that mutation came about, but I suspect it's fairly recent history (some hundred years or so maybe?).

 

[FearGod]

But it's not randomly happening...because mutations are not evolution. Mutations happen either they are neutral or they are detrimental that the being doesn't live to reproduce. The neutral ones are the ones that natural selection works on. By process of the environment. Not to mention a species has a say in it's process of evolving as well. So it's not at all random the way you are using the term random.

I don't agree with you.

Mutation, Not Natural Selection, Drives Evolution

 

[FearGod]

OK, then we have no argument, nor is there any argument that you should have with the ToE, so thanks for the clarification.

You are welcome.