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Evolution, scientific methods, and reason are losing in America's classrooms

waitasec

Veteran Member
jbug, what developed country teaches creationism other than the US?


Here's what I see happening in our country.

Those that teach mainstream Creationism do so in such a way that students are spoken to as if it is a given. They are more or less told what to think.

snip...


Then, on the other side, you have someteachers who glory in evolution and the whole new secular humanist religion that is cropping up around it. They make no hesitation to denigrate and ridicule the afore mentioned idiots who are willing to throw facts under the bus, so to speak, in order to prop up a discredited religious fable. However, they are simply the other side of the same coin.

sources?

They present evolution and secular humanism in such a way that students are spoken to as if it is all a given. They are more or less told what to think. The facts of evolution are not presented objectively as merely facts explaining physical life's manifestation on this planet. The facts of evolution become their vehicle to inject their presumptuous extrapolations found in secular humanism. They denigrate and ridicule the Bible as outmoded barbarism unfit for a modernized society, as if they know how to decipher it and can speak with authority on it. They do this because they want to establish their new morality and their new social order in place of Biblical morality.

evolution is supported by evidence
creationism isn't supported by evidence

What we have going on here is two divided factions each holding onto different segments of truth while at the same time operating with an inability to discern how they have extrapolated insane conclusions from those truths. They each think to challenge their insane extrapolations is the same as challenging their truths.

:confused:


This is why I have been trying to advocate certain principles here that will remedy most if not all of this problem. First of all, stop the brainwashing of our children that comes from people including their extrapolated self-serving presumptions being spoken of as if they are simply the way it is. All teachers should be trained at how to speak neutrally and objectively so that they do not trespass the minds of our children.

creationism is not supported by evidence
evolution is

Whatever is taught in our classrooms should be taught in a purely objective manner. If evolution is taught then just teach its facts and omit the secular humanism tack-ons. If creationism is taught then adknowledge it is mere belief. And, I agree, if it is the science classroom then evolution deserves a full and complete exposition while anything religious in nature should be touched on lighty (if at all) and quickly passed off in a neutral way as beliefs only that are outside of the scope of the class.


what are you talking about?
faith is not and cannot be objective
creationism isn't science...because it is not supported by evidence
evolution is supported by evidence
i see a pattern here...

This educational spirit leaves the minds of the students free to explore whatever truths call out to them, whether it be science and/or religion, and it helps dissipate the senseless grudgery that exists between two important segments of our society.
When all that is spoken is spoken as unlaced and unadulterated truth without the stigma "you are here to be told what to think" then students of such instruction shall be better able to perceive all truth and help make of us a more whole and complete society instead of a divided and decomposing society.


here's some quotes:
The Supreme Court, Epperson v. Arkansas (1968):
“...the First Amendment does not permit the state to require that teaching and learning must be tailored to the principles or prohibitions of any religious sect or dogma...the state has no legitimate interest in protecting any or all religions from views distasteful to them

please pay attention to this one...
McLean v. Arkansas case (1982), the judge wrote that creation scientists:
“...cannot properly describe the methodology used as scientific, if they start with a conclusion and refuse to change it regardless of the evidence developed during the course of the investigation.”

The Supreme Court, Edwards v. Aguillard (1987):
“...Because the primary purpose of the Creationism Act is to advance a particular religious belief, the Act endorses religion in violation of the First Amendment

In Webster v. New Lenox School District (1990), the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals stated:
“If a teacher in a public school uses religion and teaches religious beliefs or espouses theories clearly based on religious underpinnings, the principles of the separation of church and state are violated as clearly as if a statute ordered the teacher to teach religious theories such as the statutes in Edwards did.”

The 9th Circuit Federal Appeals Court wrote in a California case (Peloza v. Capistrano School District, 1994):
“The Supreme Court has held unequivocally that while belief in a Divine Creator of the universe is a religious belief, the scientific theory that higher forms of life evolved from lower ones is not

United States District Court Judge John E. Jones III stated thus in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 2005:
"We have concluded that Intelligent Design is not science, and moreover that I.D. cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious antecedents."

"Over the past few years, there have been several attempts to undermine the teaching of evolution in public schools. Tactics include claims that evolution is "merely a theory", which exploits the difference between the general use of the word theory and the scientific usage, and thus insinuates that evolution does not have widespread acceptance amongst scientists; promoting the teaching of alternative pseudosciences such as intelligent design; and completely ignoring evolution in biology classes. In general, these controversies, at the local school district level, have resulted in Federal and State court actions (usually by parents who are opposed to teaching of religion in school). There have been a number of consequences of these activities:"

Creation and evolution in public education - Wikipedia
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I've shared as much as I care to.
Well, I do believe you've shared as much as you're capable of.

Look, I know I'm not delivering the actual goods. Why do you berate me for what I know I am doing and what I've said I'm doing? You yet speak as if I don't know I'm doing it.
Because in your defense you keep making foolish statements you expect us to accept. It's not our fault you keep stumbling over the defense of your claims.

I've given sufficient clues such that any sincere person can put it together for themselves if that's what their path calls for. These people are who my posts are written for, not loudmouth mockers that just try and tear me to pieces.

I've given plenty enough information on this forum for you to figure it out for yourself.
smart_guy_shaking_head_no_md_clr.gif

Sorry, but I don't think any of us here are up to playing games in order to move a discussion forward.



While your mind might be capable enough to grasp it intellectually, I don't see evidence suggesting you are ready to step up and live according to it. I don't think you understand the ramification of what you are asking for. You are better off to remain ignorant because if you did come to understand it, your level of accountability would be massively increased. You are where you want to be in the matrix right now so just enjoy it while you can. I am confident I am in a place you don't want to go. Those who belong here will find it on their own.
This is sooo sad on sooooooo many levels. I know you'll be delighted with the following, but it's made with more pity than pleasure.

myemoticone_gif-emoticone-bye-bye_bye_bye.gif

 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I think between the way American parents keep their kids hooked into games and electronics constantly and the Conservatives control the media, no wonder their brains are so lacking.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I think between the way American parents keep their kids hooked into games and electronics constantly and the Conservatives control the media, no wonder their brains are so lacking.

As an American I can see your point. I'm old enough to remember a time where there was no such thing as a PC in the home, video game system, cell phone, Internet etc. I seemed to be more in tuned to the issues of the world around me but as the things above came into existence I've noticed that a large portion of American children seem to be unaware or desensitized to the rest of the world or the issues going on in other countries. We may be producing a nation of dumb children/adults. Not "stupid" but disconnected in a way.
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
There are levels of depth I have tried to go in this dialog and so far I have not discerned a single person who can hold all the distinctions I use in order to make sense out of what I say. It is very frustrating to me and at this point I am willing to just give up trying to be understood.

All the best!
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
There are levels of depth I have tried to go in this dialog and so far I have not discerned a single person who can hold all the distinctions I use in order to make sense out of what I say. It is very frustrating to me and at this point I am willing to just give up trying to be understood.

All the best!

have you ever considered the reason that might be is because YOU are the one that isn't making sense?
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
have you ever considered the reason that might be is because YOU are the one that isn't making sense?
Yes.

I'm trying to be understood and failing miserably.
I'm sure part of this is due to my own inabilities.
I found it very helpful to receive the criticisms I did.
I need more patience and I need to listen more carefully to others.
When my frustration level goes up I make statements that are unhelpful at best.

You are very welcome to add more criticism of me if you like.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

waitasec

Veteran Member
Yes.

I'm trying to be understood and failing miserably.
I'm sure part of this is due to my own inabilities.
I found it very helpful to receive the criticisms I did.
I need more patience and I need to listen more carefully to others.
When my frustration level goes up I make statements that are unhelpful at best.

You are very welcome to add more criticism of me if you like.

common now. i am not cruel. i just get frustrated too.

did you find out what other developed country teaches ID in schools?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Except that's nothing to do with ID, that's just saying "well, evolution couldn't have done it because...", but that does not mean that ID did it.

So, answer the question again, but with specific reference to ID science. Note that this does not include refuting any other scientific theory or hypothesis. Negative evidence for one idea is not positive evidence for another.

Again (and again), my point is that free and open discussion of the gaping holes in the ToE's 'evidence' is being explicitly denied in the classroom (and elsewhere, for that matter.) You cannot claim to be scientific while forbidding dissenting views and evidence. That is not science.
And to force feed young minds a theory without providing full disclosure is neither honest nor fair.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What weaknesses?

What evidence?

What prominent ToE advocates deny natural selection or the role of mutations?

(Apologies for the colours - I've forgotten how to multi-quote posts!)

Your reply is an example of denying evolution. I said in my post that let's assume ID is the accepted position. I would like an answer detailing the ID position, not the denial of evolution. In the exam question, let's substitute the word 'creation' for 'evolution'.

Edit: Just realised Immortal Flame above asked the same question as I was typing mine!

See! You haven't even heard such dissent exists.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Again (and again), my point is that free and open discussion of the gaping holes in the ToE's 'evidence' is being explicitly denied in the classroom (and elsewhere, for that matter.) You cannot claim to be scientific while forbidding dissenting views and evidence. That is not science.
And to force feed young minds a theory without providing full disclosure is neither honest nor fair.
Then I assume you're in favor of:
TEACHBOTHSIDES.png

 

Iasion

Member
Gday,

Again (and again), my point is that free and open discussion of the gaping holes in the ToE's 'evidence'

Nonsense.
Evolution is a FACT of nature.
Evolution is OBSERVED.

This nonsense about "holes" turns about to be nothing but creationist rubbish about not having EVERY fossil !


is being explicitly denied in the classroom

Wrong again!
Many US classrooms discuss creationism, and reject evolution - which is child abuse.

(and elsewhere, for that matter.) You cannot claim to be scientific while forbidding dissenting views and evidence. That is not science.

Wrong again!
Dissenting views are NOT "forbidden" at all !
Here YOU are dissenting !
Almost HALF the US population dissents.

And to force feed young minds a theory without providing full disclosure is neither honest nor fair.

Wrong again!
Evolution is a FACT of nature - it is OBSERVED.

AND - there is a theory to explain those facts.
But creationists cannot understand that.


Iasion
 

Iasion

Member
Greetings all,

THEORY has 2 meanings

It is all too common for people to confuse the two meanings of the word "theory".

In popular terms, "theory" means a guess, or speculation. Thus the common phrase "just a theory" meaning "just speculation".

But,
in scientific terms, there is another, different, meaning to the word "theory" - it means an EXPLANATION.


Theories EXPLAIN facts

Theories explain the facts we observe :

Gravity is a fact, we observe its effects.
Gravitational Theory describes how gravity works.

Electricity is a fact, we use it everyday.
Electromagnetic Theory explains the details of how it operates.

Germs are a fact.
Germ Theory explains how they cause disease.

Evolution is a fact, it is observed.
The Theory of Evolution explains how it works.



the ToE is an EXPLANATION, NOT speculation

The Theory of Evolution is NOT "speculation about evolution" - that is NOT what the phrase means at all.

Rather -
the Theory of Evolution is the EXPLANATION for how evolution works, it models the behaviour of the FACTS of evolution, and allows predictions to be made.

Just as Electromagnetic Theory is the explanation or model of how electricity works.
Would one say "electricity is just a theory" ?
Of course not.

And Gravitational Theory is the explanation or model of how gravity works.
Would one say "gravity is just a theory" ?
Of course not.

And Germ Theory is the explanation or model of how germs cause disease.
Would one say "germs are just a theory" ?
Of course not.


Yet
some people say
"evolution is (just) a theory"

as if it means
"evolution is merely untested speculation" (false)


EVOLUTION = FACT & THEORY

Evolution is a FACT.
We observe evolution.
And,
the Theory of Evolution is the EXPLANATION, or model, for the observed facts of evolution.



Iasion
 

Iasion

Member
See! You haven't even heard such dissent exists.

Bollocks !
The whole WORLD knows the US is almost 1/2 dissenters.

The US is infamous for it's creationists - the largest percentage of dissenters after TURKEY !

But this dissent is simply based on well-known creationist lies and ignorance.


Iasion
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Again (and again), my point is that free and open discussion of the gaping holes in the ToE's 'evidence' is being explicitly denied in the classroom (and elsewhere, for that matter.) You cannot claim to be scientific while forbidding dissenting views and evidence. That is not science.
And to force feed young minds a theory without providing full disclosure is neither honest nor fair.

False.
 
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