• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

EVOLUTION, what a lie.

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
looks like someone can't stand the heat.

thats your problem, "evidence". if a scientist comes up saying something, you guys blindly accept it.
You're wrong. It's not because scientists accept it*, it's because of the evidence, the huge, overwhelming, tremendous evidence.

At this point, if you want to review the evidence for ToE, which would make a thread longer than this one, I suggest we make a new thread.

*although, in general, when I don't have a high level of expertise in something, I tend to defer to those who do. For example, I don't tell my mechanic how to fix my car; I ask him.
 
Last edited:

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Eselam,

Even though you've already been provided several examples of "transitional fossils", I think a little background might be necessary before we dive too deep into the data.

First, understand that if you are truly interested in examining specific fossil series, you're going to have to do some work. By that, I mean you're going to have to read a lot and understand some basic terminology. Paleontology is a very technical field of science, with its own jargon and such. In order to get a grasp of even the basics, you need to familiarize yourself with some of it. Of course if you're not really interested and instead are just trying to "stump the evolutionists" then you should be honest and tell us now and avoid a lot of wasted time.

Also, I've found that before we get into specific fossil specimens, it's a good idea to have a mutual understanding of what we're talking about when we say "transitional fossil". If we don't, we end up going in circles. You mentioned the transition from reptiles to birds, so we'll start there. Would you agree that if birds descended from reptiles, then we should find fossil specimens that show a mixture of reptilian and avian (bird) traits?

That should be a good enough start.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
exactly my point, thus evolution is not real.

Wrong. Nothing changes that quickly. That's the core of the the theory. Think of it like black turning into white. It goes from black to a dark shade of gray to a lighter shade of gray to an even lighter shade of gray to an off-white to a slightly dark white to white. You can see a reptile with the beginnings of certain characteristics of birds that aren't close to fully developped yet. Then you can see a descendent of that reptile with those characteristics slightly more pronounced and so on until you find a bird that matches all of those accumulated little changes.

does evolution not state that species change gradually over thousands and maybe millions of years, so by not having a half reptile-half bird creature, that means that a reptile lived for some millions of years then 'poof' it just suddenly changed to a bird and then that bird gradually changed over time to addapt to it's environment.

Huh? By not having a half-reptile half-bird creature, it means the exact opposite. It means the species changed gradually over thousands or millions of years. It means there are many fossils that show the progression.

and that theory (the one i have just stated) totally contradicts evolution. meaning only one thing, evolution is a lie made up by phony scientists who do not believe in god.

What "theory" did you just state?

Yeah, evolution is a lie some scientists just made up. That makes sense. That's probably why there are so many scientists who believe in God and accept evolution, right? It's really not hard. All you have to do is look at the evidence, and you'll see it's not a lie. I mean, come on, I just don't get the thinking. Why would a country that's over 80% Christian (just to talk about America, for now) promote something that supposedly goes against that religion? That just doesn't make sense.

dissprove my claims if you think i am mistaken. anyone can try, not just you.

I'm not even entirely sure what all of your claims are, but they are mistaken. Evolution happens over millions of years in most species. So, to go from one thing (like a reptile) to something vastly different (like a bird), you're not going to have 3 fossils, one of a reptile, one of a bird and one in between. You're going to have thousands or more fossils that are varying degrees of both species.

just cos you are an ape, it does not make me one. so don't include everyone in that.

Actually, you are. It's not an insult. It's just the truth. We are part of the ape family. That doesn't make us any worse or anything. We're still very different from other members of the ape family.
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
Heh, it's funny that he would be offended to be called an ape, even as we call ourselves apes. My puny little mind, to answer jayhawke, was it? Can comprehend plenty. honestly, i just said that because i was getting annoyed that someone could take some basic logic, and with their god, manage to warp it so completely. Man, some of these religious people would argue that square were circles if they thought it somehow disproved their god, even though it actually has nothing to do with it.

Now, as it's been said before, evolution does not disprove a god. Of course, as an athiest, i figure that if we can explain everything naturally, why do we need a god to explain it? You know how they say that god making stuff is the easiest answer? How so? If we can scientifically prove how something came about, doesn't it just complicate things to add some random supernatural being into the mix? Of course, i think that is just my opinion, and many other athiests. I could be wrong, other athiests may not agree, but it makes sense.

I apologise for my snarky comments. Though, to eselam, the only heat i can't take is the heat made by your big head. Man, i can't stand it when people make assertions they can't even begin to back up. That is why I wont say there is no god, i wont make that statement, because i can't back it up. I see no real evidence for a god, and no real reason to believe there is one. But, i also see no evidence(because all gods have been made so they can not be disproven) that there isn't a god. Thus, agnostic athiest. My belief? No god. My actual knowledge? Dont know, can't disprove it.

Now, i'm not really up on evolution, i have the basic idea. But, isnt natural selection, a part of evolution? Just curious. I mean, i made a case where the changes weren't even noticeably physical, just trait based, and got told that that isn't evolution, because the fish doesn't look different. I'm pretty sure they are misunderstanding evolution, right? or am i? Someone who really knows evolution well, sort me out, will you?
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
Once again this all comes down to evidence.

I know i keep saying this, and Eselam keeps on ignoring it.

But how about i put it in big words

DEAR ESELAM

PLEASE SHOW US FACT OF ALLAH. SOME EVIDENCE. SOMETHING MAYBE A NOTE FROM ALLAH SAYING HE EXISTS. MAYBE HE COULD STOP PEOPLE FROM STARVING.

THANKYOU,


LOVE Q
 
Last edited:

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
If it hasn't been quoted here already:

"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon — it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
Do you think that was big enough.

You would think that being of infinite power, endless power, never ending power could manifest some of that power to show us poor uninformed atheists that he/she/it exists.

INFINITE POWER. Eselam do you understand the concept of infinite.

-Q
 
Last edited:

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Do you think that was big enough.

You would think that being of infinite power, endless power, never ending power could manifest some of that power to show us poor uninformed atheists that he/she/it exists.

INFINITE POWER. Eselam do you understand the concept of infinite.

-Q

Quaxotic: If you want to debate the existence of Allah, start a thread. This one is about evolution.
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
This is very important to the conversation. Eselam keeps on demanding proof, we give it to him, he demands more proof, we give it to him.

So he wants to debate whether or not evolution is 'real'. He puts forward that Allah created the earth and all it's species. I think in the spirit of the discussion his theory should be put to the same burden of proof that ours is.

-Q
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
This is very important to the conversation. Eselam keeps on demanding proof, we give it to him, he demands more proof, we give it to him.

So he wants to debate whether or not evolution is 'real'. He puts forward that Allah created the earth and all it's species. I think in the spirit of the discussion his theory should be put to the same burden of proof that ours is.

-Q

Yes, but only on his incorrect assumption that the theory that Allah created the earth and all its species is inconsistent with ToE. They are consistent, so there is no need to argue that point here.
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
well, they could be consistent. as some people have said, evolution doesn't have to be the disprover, it could simply be an explanation to the how. I don't agree, but i'm an athiest, so there you go.
 

Ghostaka

Active Member
Once again this all comes down to evidence.

I know i keep saying this, and Eselam keeps on ignoring it.

But how about i put it in big words

DEAR ESELAM

PLEASE SHOW US FACT OF ALLAH. SOME EVIDENCE. SOMETHING MAYBE A NOTE FROM ALLAH SAYING HE EXISTS. MAYBE HE COULD STOP PEOPLE FROM STARVING.

THANKYOU,


LOVE Q

^Minimized :D.

Dear Quaxotic,

There are 114 chapters of evidence in the Qur'an. What more do you want?

What is the point of a test? Each person faces a custom type of adversity in this life. How you handle that determines how well you pass your test. Don't you think being rich and having too much food is a test as well?

Being patient and staying within the limits Allah has ascribed for us in the Qur'an is the most rewarding for He says:

Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,
Who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To God We belong, and to Him is our return":-
They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from God, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.

{The Holy Qur'an, (Al-Baqarah) Chapter 2:155-157}

Allah also says:

Those who do not know say, “Why does Allāh not speak to us or there come to us a sign?” Thus spoke those before them like their words. Their hearts resemble each other. We have shown clearly the signs to a people who are certain [in faith].
{The Holy Qur'an, (Al-Baqarah) Chapter 2:118}

Peace be upon you.

**p.s. Autodidact, please let this one slide because Q seems to be... curious:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
^Minimized :D.

Dear Quaxotic,

There are 114 chapters of evidence in the Qur'an. What more do you want?

*SIGH*

For that argument to work you need to prove (with evidence) that the qur'an is inspired by allah. To prove that it was inspired by allah you have to prove (with evidence) that allah exists.

It's a circular arguement. It doesnt work.

The burden of proof (with evidence) is still your the failing point here.

You will have to do better if you want a non-believer to start believing.

-Q
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
The problem is you can't prove anything. I'm sorry some of us aren't able to believe something just because we want to.

I have on many occasions tried, it would be nice to believe in a higher power, to have a solid concrete meaning of life. But i can't do that without some kind of evidence. I envy deists sometimes, the peace of mind you must have to believe in that.

But alas it's not for me.

-Q
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
important notice;

this thread is not about proving Allahs' existence, it is about evolution and whether it is true or not.

do not sidetrack the thread with something that isn't part of evolution, well not at this point anyway. so please lets keep it with evolution. ok.

and i must thank autodidact on the evidence presented by her, that i asked for. so thank you.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
important notice;

this thread is not about proving Allahs' existence, it is about evolution and whether it is true or not.

do not sidetrack the thread with something that isn't part of evolution, well not at this point anyway. so please lets keep it with evolution. ok.

and i must thank autodidact on the evidence presented by her, that i asked for. so thank you.

Then stop bringing God/Allah/whatever into this thread. To have this debate, it must progress without the assumption that there is a higher power. You call for evidence, since the Quran is not evidence and there is no evidence for God, one cannot assume God exists.

Please keep this in mind when debating.
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
important notice;

this thread is not about proving Allahs' existence, it is about evolution and whether it is true or not.

do not sidetrack the thread with something that isn't part of evolution, well not at this point anyway. so please lets keep it with evolution. ok.

You put forward a an alternate theory to ours, which is your right. You ask for proof of our theory. This is a healthy debate, we offer 'evidence' supporting our theory, there is no reason why you shouldn't.

But if you would like i will start another thread. Will you give us evidence then?

-Q
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
why would you say that Buttons*?
would you like a 'free will' lecture?
I believe that would be for another thread....

eselam said:
so wasn't science all about "evidence" and "facts". science made those claims, not me. are you asserting that science is based on beliefs and spirituality?
No, but Qur'anic science most surely is based of off beliefs and spirituality. It's a holy book, not a science manual.

eselam said:
thats right, they are theories not facts, just like evolution is. i don't know how a theory can be called a fact?
IMO, the theory is based on facts that we know about certain things. For instance, we have all these fossils... we have no way to explain them... we look at the way birds and other animals breed... and we see that most animals want a mate that is the best possible, most physically fit, smartest of the bunch. We take these facts, and it can tell us something about how one type of animal was bred out into several other kinds of animals by geographical location, etc.

In summary, we have facts, and we make a theory. The theory, looking towards the facts for evidence, seems to make the most sense.

eselam said:
this has nothing to do with that, why bring it up? you guys are claiming that evolution is true, so where is the proof to support those claims?
I'm not claiming that it's true, I claim that it's a more fitting idea than what has been presented before based on what we have discovered.

eselam said:
and as i can recall, i asked for transitional links to be presented here. but you all failed.
PW has now posted some links to fossils that show the similarity between fossils and their modern counterparts.
 
Top