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EVOLUTION, what a lie.

rageoftyrael

Veritas
I know, i didn't give an example about something being half and half, which is apparently what you want. But keep in mind that the change i explained in the fish would take years, many of them. For them to actually evolve into something that wasn't a fish, there would be a need, and then once that need is met, it would still require many, many years to accomplish it. And, i bet you that there are a bunch of animals that are in that transition you speak of, we just don't see them that way, we just named them and labeled them as a type of animal. Because evolution takes TIME. And we haven't even really been aware of evolution for, well, i'm not sure when the ToE was made, but probably not more than a hundred years. It takes a long time for these changes, it's not overnight.

Makes sense to me.:D
 

Ghostaka

Active Member
ok if you put it that way, i guess you could say that. but still it does not prove evolution to be a fact or real. since there are no transitional forms that are half of one creature and half of another.

if anyone can provide any evidence of such a creature, that actually fits the profile, then i guess evolution is true.

but they don't exist, therefore evolution not real.

I think my comment caused some confusion... it's yes to the thread title for me :D! (or at least Evolution cannot be proven the way they are attempting to currently)

Peace be upon you.
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
you mean i haven't responded to it? i just did, happy?
Eselam, that's a cheap response, especially for you. Seriously, give it a think and at least try to respond to my ideas with more than a snarky comment. You should seriously consider that I think more of you than you may know. I think you can actually give me a decent response - and you snub me for no reason other than you don't want to consider it.
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Well, I guess you can thank Allah for misleading all those people who believe in evolution, then.

Well... if only facts are real, that takes out a LOT of information we take for granted as real. Thoughts, beliefs, spirituality... all disintegrates unless we have facts to back them up. Our facts for those, thus far, are pretty empty.

There are many theories in math, science, and physics that we believe to be true. We put them into practice and so far they are apparently true. However, something may come along to fine tune or irradicate the way we think of things now. Like the theory of planet rotation, for instance. The way we use physics to study Stars that are millions of miles away. These are theories, our best guess. I don't know how a best guess could be a lie.

Lying is knowing better, but promoting a false cover up. I don't see scientists as doing this. Maybe, if this is a trick on God's behalf, God is actually lying. Feeding us false information just to see us squirm? That's not really that loving or thoughtful.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
Not after one generation, no. But after several hundred million generations, given the right circumstances, then yes, it is slightly possible. If you understood Darwin's Theory at all, then you would see how this is so.

Here, I'll try and summarise the theory here as best I can:

Darwin's Theory of Evolution: A SUMMARY

1 - Every time an organism passes on its genes through reproduction, the female reproductive cell's DNA (The DNA in the ovum / egg) combines with the DNA of the male reproductive cell (the DNA in the sperm) to give a completely different genome - meaning, each generation will have new DNA, and each individual will have different DNA. (With me so far?)

2 - In a rudimentary sense, clustres of DNA called genes code for specific traits in an organism. Because each organism within a species (ie, humans) have slightly different DNA, each human will have slightly different traits.

3 - Throughout human history we have had to compete for limited resources in various harsh environments to keep our race alive, just as we have had to reproduce efficiently in order to keep going. This is the same for all organisms, really.

4 - At the end of the day, the organism with the DNA best suited for survival and reproduction will be the organism most likely to survive and pass on their superior genes. This is termed natural selection. In a simple sense, half of the DNA from the father and half from the mother go into creating an offspring, correct? Well what monitors what genes are passed on where? Nothing. That much is utterly random. What isn't random is natural selection, otherwise known as survival of the fittest. The individual with the inferior genes will die out, just as the individual with the best genes for the environment will live on and cause the continuation of that species.

5 - As generations progress, the genes passed on begin to change because of slightly different genomes (all the DNA in the somatic cell of a species) and karyotypes (the type of DNA in the somatic cell of a species) which arise through repetetive reproduction. This change in the karyotype of a species and generations progress, and as natural selection plays its role -- this is termed evolution.


EVIDENCE LISTED BELOW:



Now. Here are some lines of evidence for evolution:

1 - Humans have grown about a foot or so in the past century or two. There are thousands of different races on Earth which arose as humans were introduced to differing environments. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of different dog breeds - and these all stemmed from just a handful of original breeds and careful breeding. All of this can be explained by evolution.

2 - The sedimentation layers of places like the Grand Canyon have been thoroughly looked at. Older species were found on the bottom of the canyon, while the younger ones were found up near the surface (think about why this may be the case). In the long term, fossil records found in places like the Grand Canyon affirm that a plethora of species slowly changed as time progressed.

3 - By analysing all of the different compartments of our DNA and RNA (RNA is sort of the medium through which DNA does its work), we're able to see just how much our DNA has changed over time. Correct me if I'm wrong, Painted Wolf, but RNA is analysed to discern long-term evolutionary changes because it remains largely conserved over time, while DNA is analysed to discern short-term changes.

4 - In Arica... Or was it Ethiopia...? Anyway, a group of people in that region have developed a trait known as sickle-celled anemia. This occurs when the gene which codes for the protein known as haemoglobin undergoes a substitution mutation, meaning that one of the nucleotide / DNA monomer base in the gene is changed. The result is a haemoglobin protein with a slightly different structure. Now, this new haemoglobin cannot carry oxygen around the body as efficiently -- so why have it? Well, guess what? It helps to protect against malaria. The protein somehow depresses the virulence of the malaria parasite! And considering that catastrophic numbers of people in Africa are dying of malaria, this is a pretty neat change.

Now ask yourself, why would forty percent of all people in the region I'm talking about have Sickle-Celled Anemia? The answer is Natural Selection. The people without the Sickle-Cell trait die off at a faster rate than those with the trait, leaving more Sickle-Celled individuals to pass on their genes.


EVOLUTION IS HAPPENING. It's happening everywhere, every second, of every day. It's just really slow, so if you want to see some significant changes, you will have to stay alive for another few thousand years.




Now then, let me get to a few misconceptions which you might have.

A human cannot breed with a dog or a fish or even a mosquito. This is absolutely correct. But that does not mean that, if for some reason, a human is forced to change into a mosquito over a period of several billion years (through evolution), then this would be possible.

The reason that a dog cannot reproduce with a human (yuck!) is because the genes in their somatic cells are far too different. The egg (oocyte / ovum) gets aborted during embryonic devolopment. Mitosis of the fertalised egg cell just dun' happen, because the body sends the signal that says something ain't right, and the embryo gets aborted.





Anyway, if you have any questions, feel free to ask. :D

First off, Abiogenesis Theory, the First Cause argument, the Singularity, the Big Bang theory and anything that does not relate to the Theory of Evolution have no relevance in this thread.

Secondly, if you, like me, find it hard to believe that the universe itself was spawned from "nothing" (it would seem), and if it is so incomprehensible that the Earth and life thereon was just an infinitely impossible cosmic accident, then doesn't this affirm your belief in a Creator? No aspect of science denies the existence of God. Rather, it would seem to suggest it to a lot of people.

Thirdly, evolution is observable. It wasn't so long ago that there were only a handful of dog breeds in the world. Now there are thousands. That is just one observation which is easily explained by evolution. However, you're right in a sense - the progress of evolution is a slow one. But even long-term evolution is observable when you take a look at our DNA and contrast it with the DNA of our ascendants.

That is because you are not looking up the scientific definition of the word, theory.

Here, read these:

Scientific theory - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

define: Scientific Theory - Google Search

Definition of Scientific Theory

If you read only the first section of each of those links, you should understand what is meant when scientists describe a 'theory'. It should only take you five minutes.

But if you can't be bothered, I'll explain here:

In science, a theory is a description which best describes the observable phenomenon of the world. It has been tested countless times and found to hold true for each test. In essence, a theory is the single best explanation for the natural phenomenon it describes.

Scientific theories cannot be based on religious scriptures because you cannot empirically and objectively measure the role that the supernatural plays in the world. However, if you ask me, even though scientific theories objectively explain reality without bias, they cannot account for the religious experiences and innate knowledge of individuals who experience religion.


If you wish to understand evolution, then read this. Please realise that you do not have to agree with the theory to understand what it is saying. It does make logical sense, and if you disagree, that does not mean that you are being illogical. Just that you know there is a better explanation which you cannot affirm through the scientific method.

My main point here, though, is that before you voice your disagreement, it would be wise to KNOW what you are disagreeing with. Otherwise, it makes you look slightly foolish.

Here is my explanation from a few pages back:



If you need references for everything I've said here, then feel free to get back to me.

And Fatihah, I somehow doubt that scientists who claim to have seen evidence of evolution are lying. Science is not some huge conspiracy theory. Instead, it aims to describe reality as best as it can by taking into account all of the observable evidence available.

I really don't know why I just said that every scientist ever is not lying about evolution, because to claim such a thing just seems silly. :(
 
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Ghostaka

Active Member
Evolution usually takes place over a long span of time, with small changes happening, which accumulate over time, and you end up, eventually, with something new. If this wasn't the case, why do we have so many different types of the same kind of animal? Thousands of different varieties of the same animal.... Many different types of dogs, cats, monkeys, birds, fish, it goes on and on. These may be similar to each other, but they have noticeable differences.

But my friend, if you look at the example you provided you will notice that breeding in this case is a forced event i.e. the breeder purposely takes the two variety of dogs (for example) and mates them. That did not happen by accident. In addition... can you see that variety is a sign of Allah's Might (and Genious)? Let me lay down a automotive example ;). If you see car manufacturer produce one type of car and nothing else... you'd think they are not very innovative/capable right (assuming that they do have the finance - however Allah has not end to His Power in this respect) and you saw another company produce a much wider variety of models and this manufacturer is exactly the same in size/region as the limited one what would you think? You'd think that the latter manufacturer is much more capable right? (huge example - I know :eek:).

you know, i'm certain that people have used breeding as an example of evolution. you can see evolution, to an extent, when people breed different types of dogs to each other, repeatedly, over a span of time, to get a specific trait. Maybe a certain look, or skill. This is a perfectly good example of evolution at work. And even this version, which isn't completely natural, takes time. It isn't instantaneous.
Yup futhering my point above about being a manipulated type of breeding.

Ah, i just looked over eselam's comment, and you said we change, and don't notice. You are right, you see yourself everyday, and thus don't notice the natural changes that occur to you. This is a very basic idea of evolution here. We change, over time, into something new. You know, we even change mentally, to an extent. I bet, if you could look at yourself 5 years ago, and compared yourself to that person, you'll notice a reasonable amount of differences. Maybe nothing earth-shattering, like no, you didn't turn into a girl all of a sudden, but there are differences.
These are short-term changes. Since Eselam is person, and people learn things during their life time; it is just a product of growing. Animals grow old too. Not evolution in this case I would say :ninja:

Okay, there's a fish. This fish has found it's equilibrium. It's doing fine. But then, oh no, a new type of fish has come into the territory. This new fish has decided that the orignal fish, let's call them eselams, eh? and these new fish will be called ragetyrs, ok? well, the ragetyrs has decided that the eselams are quite yummy. Well, the eselams are not equipped to handle the awesome power of the ragetyrs. So, what will happen is kind of like this. As the population of esalams reduces, only the best will survive. These best will breed with each other. This will eventually help the line improve in general, as only the best will survive. when i say best, i mean the fish that are a little faster, a little smarter, etc. As you get the best of the esalams breeding, these traits become common, thus improving the stock. The reason this works is that any of the esalams that aren't better will be eaten by the ragetyrs. And only the best will be alive to breed, right? This is the simplest explanation i can give of an indepth reason as to why there is evolution. Now, you don't have a new species, but you have a better species, it's not the same, because eventually, all eselams, or at least most, will be at that level, and you will begin to have even better ones, who aren't the norm, but even better. Now, if they have already gotten to the point where they aren't the fave delicacy of the ragetyrs, then there will not be any change, cause there is no need, right? Yeah, that was basic.
Yup it was (and interesting too) lol. But as you say yourself, it is just natural selection making small changes (which really can be seen as Allah's doing). Natural selection, if you consider Allah, is not autonomous. Therefore random mutations are not autonomous either. Therefore we are still at square one if you consider that nothing happends without the Permission of Allah. *For the people that don't think that Allah's being a Creator is not related to ToE; it is ;). Since the dilemma with ToE for believers is that nothing can happen without Allah's Will for it.

Okay, i'm done with my lesson. Wow, that was long, lol.
Sorreh! I've got my teaching skills on it's too late :D.

Makes sense to me.:D
Yeaps, makes sense to me too.

Peace be upon you.

*sorry if anyone has already replied to"--tyreal"'s comment... chunky examples on my part.
 
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Ghostaka

Active Member
Well, I guess you can thank Allah for misleading all those people who believe in evolution, then.

If it is us that believe in evolution for the wrong reasons then we are only deceiving ourselves. Right?

Well... if only facts are real, that takes out a LOT of information we take for granted as real. Thoughts, beliefs, spirituality... all disintegrates unless we have facts to back them up. Our facts for those, thus far, are pretty empty.
You cannot dismiss the Qur'an as evidence (thereby accepting what Allah says about nothing being able to "evolve" without His permission as "fact").

There are many theories in math, science, and physics that we believe to be true. We put them into practice and so far they are apparently true. However, something may come along to fine tune or irradicate the way we think of things now. Like the theory of planet rotation, for instance. The way we use physics to study Stars that are millions of miles away. These are theories, our best guess. I don't know how a best guess could be a lie.
But guesses can be wrong, no? Therefore propagating as what "really happened because of fossil evidence" would be "lying" in that case.

Lying is knowing better, but promoting a false cover up. I don't see scientists as doing this. Maybe, if this is a trick on God's behalf, God is actually lying. Feeding us false information just to see us squirm? That's not really that loving or thoughtful.
Umm... Again, you are presuming that what scientists have discovered is flawless so that you can say that you are being lied to. However, why are you assuming this? You yourself have said that theories can be totally dismissed in the case of a new but completely conflicting discovery comes up right? Therefore some people squirming is a result of their own doing.. because Allah say's that not thing happens without His will. That is if you believe that.

Peace be upon you. (again sorry for interfering)
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
whats a fossil? :sarcastic

So basically there is 2 things you need to make a fossil.

1. An animal of some sort
2. A burial event

Maybe none of the animals that lived in the 'gap' in the fossil record actually experienced a burial event. Maybe they all died and their bones rotted away leave no fossil evidence.

Maybe we haven't found them yet.

It's a theory, yes there is gaps in the theory. But there is evidence that supports the theory. But it relies on fact, solid objects that can be observed, testing, retesting. There is evidence that theory is correct, it's not perfect but......

*WOOOOSAAAAAAHHHHHHH*

We seem to be circling around the fact that there is proof of our theory and ZERO for yours. You debate our evidence. We debate your lack of evidence.

And we are going to keep on doing it because no one side has concrete irrefutable proof.

I guess this wouldnt be a very big forum if we all agreed.

-Q
 
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The earth is covered in fossils.. so not all of them were preserved and still look like bones we can recognize? The dirt you walk on is broken down dead things from trees to organisms. The sun, the rain, the wind, and other organisms all work at breaking these things down.. of course we're not going to have every little nit picky fossil available, but we have enough to substantiate theories and this is all that matters.
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
I just wanted to say that first off, I hope I didn't offend you. I used rather strong language because Eselam and I have actually had debates before - I feel he and I are somewhat used to one another's antics. However, I want you to know that I do try to respect and understand Islam insofar as I am able. :)

If it is us that believe in evolution for the wrong reasons then we are only deceiving ourselves. Right?
Well... what are the wrong reasons? Is wanting to try and understand how life came to be, and using the scientific method to do so, a "wrong" reason? I don't have anything against the scientific method - I think it's wonderful!

I do have something against people who preach evolution as though it were a religion, but not many people are actually like that. It just seems to fit what we can observe as people. I don't think self deception can really come by honest observation and study of physical information. I do believe that scientists are being honest as they can be with the information available. (Carbon dating, fossils, genes... etc.)

Ghostaka said:
You cannot dismiss the Qur'an as evidence (thereby accepting what Allah says about nothing being able to "evolve" without His permission as "fact").
If I can't dismiss the Qur'an as evidence... must I also accept all works that say something about the nature of how humans "got here"? I mean... for someone like me, who doesn't necessarily believe in the Qur'an (for I am obviously not Muslim) how could I accept it above something else like the Bible? (I'm not Christian either.) I don't think the Qur'an is a scientific manual for all things scientific. I have seen a few people try to stretch the words of the Qur'an to fit modern scientific discovery... but I must admit, it's a stretch.

Science is also not my religion. I don't think it's 100% correct simply because many claim it to be. But science is also not an outright lie - because we can test almost every theory that comes our way - and so far, the theories stand. (The ONLY problem with Evolution is that it would take millions of years to witness, and none of us would be able to see it in action...) Because we can't see evolution happening before our eyes does not make it false, nor does it make it absolutely true.

But, based on the information science has gathered, it does seem they have slightly more evidence for their theory than any holy book or otherwise. I have to side with the best guess - and science has it coupled with lots of supporting evidence.

Ghostaka said:
But guesses can be wrong, no? Therefore propagating as what "really happened because of fossil evidence" would be "lying" in that case.
Well, it's hard to put it so black and white like that. I don't think science is perfect... but at the same time, I don't think all religious texts are perfect... and I don't even think I believe that one religious text is perfect... :( So I wouldn't be able to choose one over the other anyway. I have to go with who has the most evidence.

Ghostaka said:
Umm... Again, you are presuming that what scientists have discovered is flawless so that you can say that you are being lied to. However, why are you assuming this? You yourself have said that theories can be totally dismissed in the case of a new but completely conflicting discovery comes up right? Therefore some people squirming is a result of their own doing.. because Allah say's that not thing happens without His will. That is if you believe that.
I don't honestly believe that evolution is a theory that will completely be thrown out in favor of another theory. It is the first step in building onto other theories. Similarly, even though Kepler only had one piece of the puzzle concerning planetary motion, it took Newton to expand on that theory and make new theories concerning planetary motion and gravity. It wasnt' a lie in Kepler's case, he just didn't have all the information.

But if nothing happens except Allah's will, it must be His will that we make these kinds of discoveries outside the realm of Islam, and that some people disagree with the Qur'an's teachings... otherwise it would simply not be... right?
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
... why do robots and cars always end up as proof for a no evolution by creationists? :D
Why does nobody ever say a toaster, or something? :D
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
... why do robots and cars always end up as proof for a no evolution by creationists? :D
Why does nobody ever say a toaster, or something? :D

.... I thought EVERYBODY knew that toasters evolved from fireplaces... almost 10,000 years ago! We found the fossils of the earliest specimen!!! Exciting, no? :D
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
I'm not very happy with your response to me. Why? Because i can sum your response up in one phrase. Allah did it. Yeah, whatever. So, what i see here, is that people just don't want to think, so they cling to their simple explanation, even if, it is shown to them to be basically ridiculous, they will continue to cling onto to it with all their might. Not all of us, but far to many. It's sad really.
 

rageoftyrael

Veritas
You know, anyone who isn't religious in this thread, stop talking to these people. You can't prove anything to them, cause even if they are willing to admit that evolution is true, their god did it, which is apparently the only thing their little minds can comprehend. I sit here, and put down what i consider to be a reasonable explanation of basic evolution. And i get a ridiculous response saying, allah did it! Pathetic. I hate dealing with people who want to take facts and warp them as they see fit. Why does there have to be a god? Anyone of you religious people wanna step up to that question? Why does there HAVE to be a god? Well, i wanna hear your answers, but i'll give you my opinion as to why you think there has to be a god. You can't bear the idea that you could be wrong. I think so many people just have this huge ego they cant let go of. I know you guys accuse athiests of this, but at least we are willing to listen to evidence, and not discount what we see with our own eyes just because it doesn't fit into our little convenient world.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
So basically there is 2 things you need to make a fossil.

1. An animal of some sort
2. A burial event

i didn't ask how to get a fossil i said "what is a fossil", and yet you failed to explain that to me. oh well that makes 2 of us then.

Maybe none of the animals that lived in the 'gap' in the fossil record actually experienced a burial event. Maybe they all died and their bones rotted away leave no fossil evidence.

maybe they do not exist. ever thought of that?

so let me get this straight (i will be using the reptile-bird theory), scientists have found fossils of reptiles (who are assumed to be the ancestors of birds) and they have found birds that in some 'magical way' are the descendants of a particular reptile. but, this is the interesting part, a creature that lived in between the time zone of the ancestor and the descendant is nowhere to be found. so a fully developed bird has been able to experiance a burial event, but a reptile like bird that i assume spent most of it's time on the ground, never experienced the burial event.
now that makes you think doesn't it?

Maybe we haven't found them yet.

or maybe you never will, because they do not exist.

It's a theory, yes there is gaps in the theory. But there is evidence that supports the theory. But it relies on fact, solid objects that can be observed, testing, retesting. There is evidence that theory is correct, it's not perfect but......

*WOOOOSAAAAAAHHHHHHH*

can you provide some "facts" and "evidences" that actually makes sense and is backing up this theory that has evidences but that it requires facts to back up those evidences.


We seem to be circling around the fact that there is proof of our theory and ZERO for yours. You debate our evidence. We debate your lack of evidence.

i haven't debated any evidences yet, because i can clearly remember asking for some to be brought forward but there are none. i have provided evidence, evidence that are backed up by you and everyone else, WHERE ARE THE MISSING TRANSITIONAL LINKS? i am saying to you that these links do not exist, so prove me wrong.

And we are going to keep on doing it because no one side has concrete irrefutable proof.

so then i was right, evolution is just a theory and not a fact, no solid evidence to support it.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
You know, anyone who isn't religious in this thread, stop talking to these people. You can't prove anything to them, cause even if they are willing to admit that evolution is true, their god did it, which is apparently the only thing their little minds can comprehend. I sit here, and put down what i consider to be a reasonable explanation of basic evolution. And i get a ridiculous response saying, allah did it! Pathetic. I hate dealing with people who want to take facts and warp them as they see fit. Why does there have to be a god? Anyone of you religious people wanna step up to that question? Why does there HAVE to be a god? Well, i wanna hear your answers, but i'll give you my opinion as to why you think there has to be a god. You can't bear the idea that you could be wrong. I think so many people just have this huge ego they cant let go of. I know you guys accuse athiests of this, but at least we are willing to listen to evidence, and not discount what we see with our own eyes just because it doesn't fit into our little convenient world.

looks like someone can't stand the heat.

thats your problem, "evidence". if a scientist comes up saying something, you guys blindly accept it.
 
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