EVOLUTION, what a lie.

[Dirty Penguin]

and would anyone else like to explain the logic in the sheer arrogance of people claiming that their god is the one and only answer to the question of the existence of the universe? I mean, where's the logic in thinking that our insignificant speck of a planet means anything to any potential being of that kind of power?

where's the logic in supposing that an all knowing all powerful creative force like that would give two craps about what we did with out pathetically short lives on this little rock in the middle of nowhere? do people really think it's LOGICAL that this god character is actually like its written in the man-made bible? REALLY? i mean RRREEAAALLLLY?! JEEZ

While I do agree with most of the stuff in both of your post we have to keep in mind that for a lot of theist this is all they know. They were brought up to believe their god made everything. What I have been able to gather here on RF is that a lot of people here are trying to give the info on evolution, its process etc. Some, not all, theist seem to take issue with that. Evolution has nothing to do with God of the bible/quran or any other gods. Some theist have a hard time separating the two.

 

[logician]

A big problem I see with some religions is trying to imply a factual basis to their scriptures, when their intentions when written was to teach a story using a fictional basis.

 

[challupa]

A big problem I see with some religions is trying to imply a factual basis to their scriptures, when their intentions when written was to teach a story using a fictional basis.

Here is a quote from John Dominic Crosson, author of "Who is Jesus"

"My point once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically, and we are now dumb enough to take them literally".

 

[Autodidact]

Here's my offer, esalem: I'll let you end this thread without ever learning anything about what you're attacking, and you agree not to go around the internet asserting that evolution is a lie, since you obviously don't know enough about it to know whether it's a lie or not, and are not willing to learn. How does that sound?

 

[Gharib]

Here's my offer, esalem: I'll let you end this thread without ever learning anything about what you're attacking, and you agree not to go around the internet asserting that evolution is a lie, since you obviously don't know enough about it to know whether it's a lie or not, and are not willing to learn. How does that sound?

well thats what i did, actually who is willing to teach me of evolution, i'm all ears, i will ask questions but will not try to disproove it. i this thread. anyone willing to do that?

 

[Stellify]

well thats what i did, actually who is willing to teach me of evolution, i'm all ears, i will ask questions but will not try to disproove it. i this thread. anyone willing to do that?

I believe a number of people in here have already been kind enough to provide you with advice, information, and links.

...Perhaps you could go and check some of those out so that no one has to re-post them?

 

[Gharib]

I believe a number of people in here have already been kind enough to provide you with advice, information, and links.

...Perhaps you could go and check some of those out so that no one has to re-post them?

i forgot about that. thank you

 

[Autodidact]

well thats what i did, actually who is willing to teach me of evolution, i'm all ears, i will ask questions but will not try to disproove it. i this thread. anyone willing to do that?

Great, esalem, I'm encouraged by your willingness to learn. As I said, if nothing else, you will become a better opponent of evolution, because you will understand what it is you're attacking. OTOH, you may see things differently before we're don.

To begin with, let's get some introductory material out of the way. Do you understand that the Theory of Evolution (ToE) is a specific theory in a specific field of science, Biology, and that is has nothing to say about whether Allah exists or created the universe? I find that it's good to proceed on the assumption, for the purpose of this thread, that Allah exists and created the entire universe, O.K.? So we're not arguing about that. Science is a method for learning about the natural world, the one we can see and hear. It does not address the existence of God. So, assuming that Allah created all things, ToE tries to answer the question, how did He do so?

As a scientific theory, ToE explains why we have so many different kinds of living things on earth, and why they are so diverse and perfectly adapted to their environment and way of living. That's all. It has nothing to do with the origin of the universe, origin of life, or anything else, but it's quite a lot that it does answer, which is why it's one of the most important discoveries and theories in the history of science. It is also not a philosophy or worldview, and does not in any way assert that Allah does not exist or did not create the universe, so we don't need to worry about that.

A scientific theory is a complete explanation for a natural observation, that addresses all knows facts and observations about that particular area. A theory becomes accepted and relied on if it supported by the evidence. Theories are never proven. They are supported if all observable evidence is consistent with them, and in particular if all predictions made by the theory turn out to be correct. O.K. with all of that so far?

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., esalem, if you're with us so far, here's the basic idea.
You know that offspring resemble their parents closely, but not exactly. You look like your brothers, but not exactly, and all of you look like your parents, but not exactly. That's "descent with modification." Now say we're not talking about people, but some other creature. When a creature is born with a trait that works (which can happen due to descent with modification) it will get to grow up and have babies, so the trait is passed on. If a creature is born with a trait that doesn't work, it never reproduces, and the trait dies out. That's natural selection. See how those work? I'm sure you'll agree that both of those things happen. The question is, what is the combined effect?

Here's what the Theory of Evolution (ToE) says. Let's take some kind of creature, say a bird, living on an island. Say it's a little bird, 3" long, brown with buff belly, small fat beak for crushing seeds, lays 4-6 eggs in a nest in a bush, small feet for perching, etc. O.K., and it's reproducing generation after generation. The offspring vary a little bit, maybe an occasional spot or more brown, resistant to a different disease, little bigger or smaller, etc., but due to sexual reproduction the traits get mixed back into the general population, so it stays the same species. Now comes a big storm, and a few birds are caught in it and get blown to another nearby island, too far away to fly to normally. That population is isolated. And the same thing happens there. But that island is slightly different--a little further south, few different predators, different seeds, different diseases. And over time, as different traits (descent with modification) get passed on (natural selection), that population starts looking a little different. Overall they're bigger, they have yellowish spots on their heads, lay 3-5 eggs, and eat different seeds, so their beaks are a little larger. When they get different enough that they can no longer interbreed with the parent population, scientists call that a new species. According to ToE, that's how we get new species.

Thoughts about that?

 

[Magic Man]

ok guys i have to be honest now. we can't go on any further. the reason is because i had no idea i was going to have 20 other RF members here all asking me questions at the same time. this was just a continuation debate sort of thing from another thread, i didn't know that all the RF members were going to join in, who am i going to communicate with first, look at all the questions here, i know that my knowledge of evolution isn't as good as many of yours but thats natural, a non muslim cannot have the knowledge of islam like a muslim who practices it every single day. i appologise if anyone sort of got angry or offended, no bad intetions were meant.

peace out, eselam.

Well, that's fine. You don't have to continue this. However, you should be advised that when you title a thread something like "Evolution, what a lie", you're going to get a lot of responses opposing you.

I don't think anyone, or at least not many people, got angry, just frustrated, but your apology is appreciated nonetheless.

And, remember, that we don't expect you to know everything there is to know about evolution. I sure don't. We just want you to understand the basics. It's like, I don't expect you to understand algebra or calculus (I sure as hell don't), but you should be able to do simple adding, subtracting, dividing and multiplying at least. In that same vain, you should just understand that evolution has enormous amounts of evidence that support it and every prediction based on it so far has been accurate. You should also understand that, at its core, it says that living organisms change over time in accordance with their environment. Sometimes, those changes add up over a long period of time to equal a major change as far as humans are concerned, but it's really just a combination of many small changes.

Anyway, you seem like a relatively reasonable fellow as far as these things go. I just hope you let yourself be open to new possibilities and not just dismiss them because your religion says to. And, by the way, all I'm asking is that you make an attempt to understand something before deciding whether or not to dismiss it.

 

[Gharib]

O.K., esalem, if you're with us so far, here's the basic idea.
You know that offspring resemble their parents closely, but not exactly. You look like your brothers, but not exactly, and all of you look like your parents, but not exactly. That's "descent with modification." Now say we're not talking about people, but some other creature. When a creature is born with a trait that works (which can happen due to descent with modification) it will get to grow up and have babies, so the trait is passed on. If a creature is born with a trait that doesn't work, it never reproduces, and the trait dies out. That's natural selection. See how those work? I'm sure you'll agree that both of those things happen. The question is, what is the combined effect?

so natural selction is about the species that have the abillity to reproduce as opposed to those who can't, right.

but isn't it also about stronger species surviving and weaker species diying out?
if so i have something to ask you about this.

Here's what the Theory of Evolution (ToE) says. Let's take some kind of creature, say a bird, living on an island. Say it's a little bird, 3" long, brown with buff belly, small fat beak for crushing seeds, lays 4-6 eggs in a nest in a bush, small feet for perching, etc. O.K., and it's reproducing generation after generation. The offspring vary a little bit, maybe an occasional spot or more brown, resistant to a different disease, little bigger or smaller, etc., but due to sexual reproduction the traits get mixed back into the general population, so it stays the same species. Now comes a big storm, and a few birds are caught in it and get blown to another nearby island, too far away to fly to normally. That population is isolated. And the same thing happens there. But that island is slightly different--a little further south, few different predators, different seeds, different diseases. And over time, as different traits (descent with modification) get passed on (natural selection), that population starts looking a little different. Overall they're bigger, they have yellowish spots on their heads, lay 3-5 eggs, and eat different seeds, so their beaks are a little larger. When they get different enough that they can no longer interbreed with the parent population, scientists call that a new species. According to ToE, that's how we get new species.

Thoughts about that

yes i agree with this, especially the part that they have to addapt to the other environment and laying less eggs, due to different food and nutrition.

the main point is though that the overall species will not change as in to become some other animal, it is still similar to what it was but it just addapted to the new environment by changing it's diet, which lead to changing it's beack due to the food it was needed to eat,

 

[DarkSun]

It's been said a billion types before, and it doesn't speak well of people's intelligence when it has to be repeated yet again: evolution and god ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. The only thing in conflict with the theory are literal interpretations of creation myths. No single religion has a monopoly on the concept of god, and dismissing something that man contributed to god IS NOT the same as dismissing god himself. This all should be rather obvious, but apparently religious fundamentalism really does cause a functioning mind to cease and atrophy.

I thought we've already established that scientific theories are not incompatible with the idea of god a few pages back?

eselam, Please read this.

 

[Gharib]

eslam, Please read this.

i'm reading but i'm not understanding?
a little help please

 

[Stellify]

i'm reading but i'm not understanding?
a little help please

I think they were just trying to point out that believing in God doesn't necessarily mean you can't believe in evolution, too. You don't have to be one way or the other, you can believe in both.

I believe Father Heathen was trying to say that the biggest thing that gets in the way is when people interpret creation (whichever creation story you believe in, such as Adam and Eve) literally. Just because someone believes in evolution doesn't mean they're dismissing God's hand in things altogether.

Does that help at all?

 

[DarkSun]

i'm reading but i'm not understanding?
a little help please

I think your problem with Evolution comes down to your religious beliefs. You do not understand the scientific method, and your understanding of the Theory of Evolution is so far limited to what facts support your literal interpretation of the Quran. And as far as I can see, the underlying reason that you are rejecting Evolution is because you believe that it conflicts with your faith.

Do you understand so far?


Now here's the thing. What if God/Allah chose to orchestrate evolution, and cause the progression of life itself? If God directed life through this process, then there is absolutely no confliction between evolution and Islam.

And to say that a creator directed evolution is not to limit the power of God. If God suddenly created life in three seconds, then imagine the plethora of knowledge and wonder that we humans would have missed out on because of it. And if the universe were 13,000 years old, and not trillions of years old as science has predicted, then imagine how many less stars in the sky we would be able to see. The cosmos, and even our own planet, is such a more wondrous and unfathomable place because of its agelessness.

Besides, just because God has the ability to create humans as static, unchanging creatures, that doesn't mean He would have. That does not mean He should have.

In fact, the vast plethora of observable evidence suggests that people did evolve. I see no reason to refute such a thing.

 

[Autodidact]

so natural selction is about the species that have the abillity to reproduce as opposed to those who can't, right.

Yes, survive and reproduce both.

but isn't it also about stronger species surviving and weaker species diying out?

No, not stronger and weaker, just more or less able to survive. I'm sure you agree that if a specific individual does not survive to adulthood and reproduce, than any trait that has emerged in the individual dies out. If not enough individuals get to survive and reproduce, that species goes extinct. We see this all the time. You agree?

if so i have something to ask you about this.

No, it's not so. It's not about stronger and weaker, just able to survive and reproduce or not. Any number of traits could cause an individual to survive and reproduce.

yes i agree with this, especially the part that they have to addapt to the other environment and laying less eggs, due to different food and nutrition.

Or any change in the environment.

the main point is though that the overall species will not change as in to become some other animal, it is still similar to what it was but it just addapted to the new environment by changing it's diet, which lead to changing it's beack due to the food it was needed to eat,

Yes and no. Do you see how this results in the emergence of a new species? How this could happen? It's not about an individual adapting, it's about the population changing over time--over thousands of years. Do you understand this process now? Do you agree that this can and does happen?

 

[Autodidact]

i'm reading but i'm not understanding?
a little help please

To simplify this issue, let's all agree to assume, for the purpose of this thread, that Allah created all things, but it is all outside of science's ability to determine, so we won't dispute it here. The only question we are looking at is the how, which is what science can learn about.

 

[DarkSun]

To simplify this issue, let's all agree to assume, for the purpose of this thread, that Allah created all things, but it is all outside of science's ability to determine, so we won't dispute it here. The only question we are looking at is the how, which is what science can learn about.

Understood.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Greetings

Making someone believe is easy. Changing that belief is a little harder. Changing HOW that person believes is harder still. The final part, the most challenging, is making somebody admit they've changed, despite their possibly aggressive arguements against it previously.

GhK.

 

[Valjean]

leaving theology aside, esealm, do you believe farmers are able to "improve" their livestock and crops through selective breeding? Have you ever seen a litter of puppies where all were not identical to the parents?