EVOLUTION, what a lie.

[Autodidact]

Yes, I understand the distinction. Thanks, though.

I was just pointing out that religion and science don't have to conflict with each other. I understand that religious claims cannot be justified through science itself, because by nature, religion is proven by the individuals' own inductive reasoning, while science proves itself through deductive reasoning. All I was saying was that science cannot fundamentally disprove religion, just as it cannot prove it.

Do we disagree?

No, we agree completely.

 

[Gharib]

If you want to talk about the creation of life, abiogenesis, then I suggest you start a thread to discuss it. It has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, which is your outrageous statement that evolution is a lie.

If you are interested in the origin of life, why did you start a thread about evolution?

I've explained the core concept of the ToE, and you said that you agreed with it. At this point, since you understand that core idea of ToE, you should also understand that it has nothing to do with what you're talking about now, which is abiogenesis.

In any case, there is nothing anywhere in Biology that says that anything came into existence by itself, that humans do not have a purpose in life, that God did not create humanity, that humanity came about by chance or randomness, or anything else you assert here.

Basically, your problem is that you are rejecting things without knowing anything about them, which makes it very difficult to respond. It's as if someone told you that they reject Islam because they don't believe in zombies, or because they believe that 2 + 2 =4, and Islam asserts that it = 5. You really can't do much with that.

So my suggestion for you is that before you start denying or rejecting things, that you develop some basic understanding fo what it is you're discussing.

Let me ask you this: Is it your position that Islam and all devout Muslims must reject science and the scientific method?

ok ok, lets speak about evolution.

oh and muslims do not reject science, we are tolled in the quran to discover things, how the univere works etc, but the thing is many non muslims scientists do not say that god created everything, but came about by chance. thats the problem.

would you know what would be a good starting point about evolution, so that you guys could tell me about?

 

[Gharib]

Eselam- As a theist I can understand some of your issues with evolution.
As a student of biology and a semi-professional working biologist, I have a growing understanding of evolution and how it works in the day to day world.
I have found that understanding evolution hasn't hurt my faith in creator, if anything it has helped strengthen it.

I would be more than willing to answer any questions you may have on evolution.

wa:do

thanks painted wolf, what do you recon would be a good starting point to tell me about, because at the moment i can't think of anything.

 

[painted wolf]

thanks painted wolf, what do you recon would be a good starting point to tell me about, because at the moment i can't think of anything.

Well, not knowing what you do or don't know already... it's hard to say where to start.

You expressed curiosity about 'chance' in evolution... perhaps we can start there?

As Sandy pointed out, what looks totally like chance on the surface is actually a bit more complicated than that.

The genes of parents combine in their children under some fairly predictable "rules" (I put rules in quotes because there isn't a hard law regarding this, just probability). Each time this happens little changes sneak into the next generation, mutations and new combinations of features. This is why kids are never exact copies of their parents.
And aren't we all happy about that!

This fact is the basic foundation of Evolution. "Decent with modification" or in more technical terms "change in allele frequencies over time" (alleles are different varieties of genetic traits in the DNA, such as brown eye or blue eyes.)

While the exact nature of these changes can't be predicted exactly, we do know that certain things don't happen. Dogs will never give birth to cats for example. This is the sort of change that is simply too extreme to ever expect. It would require too much change.
In fact if it ever did, it would be evidence against evolution!

I won't go into all the details about how DNA gets copied and how genes from parents come together to make a child... if you have anything you want me to explain further just let me know and I'll try to help you with it.

I know evolution is a difficult subject to learn and understand... I'm still learning myself and I've been at this a while.
But that is part of why I enjoy learning about it so much. It keeps me on my toes and it gives me more and more respect for creator to try to understand just how much goes into making things the way they are today. And to know that it isn't over yet! How amazing is it that the process of creation still continues for us to witness!

I hope that what I've said helps a little!

wa:do

ps. If I ever use a term you don't understand, let me know! I'm used to the rather odd science terms that we biologists toss around when we talk... sometimes I forget what a 'normal' word and a 'technical' word are! I try to never use such words without trying to explain them, but I understand if my explanations aren't quite good enough.

 

[Autodidact]

ok ok, lets speak about evolution.

Yes, since that's what the thread is about, let's do that.

oh and muslims do not reject science, we are tolled in the quran to discover things, how the univere works etc, but the thing is many non muslims scientists do not say that god created everything, but came about by chance. thats the problem.

Tell you what. Let's assume, for the purpose of this thread, that Allah is God and created everything in heaven and earth, all living things, the entire universe, O.K.? So that's not in question (here.) The only thing that science asks is, how did He do it? Did He do it by setting up a process--evolution--or did He do it by Magic Poofing? Or some other way? Science says, let's look at the evidence and find out. But science cannot tell us whether Allah created all things, so we can talk about evolution and assume that He did, O.K.?

You can't accept science and reject ToE, esalem. ToE is science. It either works or it doesn't. If you think it works, then you have to accept ToE. Otherwise you're contradicting yourself.

would you know what would be a good starting point about evolution, so that you guys could tell me about?

There's a lot of good material on the internet, starting with the UCBerkeley page. To begin with, did you read and understand what I said about what evolution says about how new species come into being? Really understand it? You might want to go back and read it.

 

[Gharib]

Well, not knowing what you do or don't know already... it's hard to say where to start.

You expressed curiosity about 'chance' in evolution... perhaps we can start there?

As Sandy pointed out, what looks totally like chance on the surface is actually a bit more complicated than that.

The genes of parents combine in their children under some fairly predictable "rules" (I put rules in quotes because there isn't a hard law regarding this, just probability). Each time this happens little changes sneak into the next generation, mutations and new combinations of features. This is why kids are never exact copies of their parents.
And aren't we all happy about that!

This fact is the basic foundation of Evolution. "Decent with modification" or in more technical terms "change in allele frequencies over time" (alleles are different varieties of genetic traits in the DNA, such as brown eye or blue eyes.)

While the exact nature of these changes can't be predicted exactly, we do know that certain things don't happen. Dogs will never give birth to cats for example. This is the sort of change that is simply too extreme to ever expect. It would require too much change.
In fact if it ever did, it would be evidence against evolution!

I won't go into all the details about how DNA gets copied and how genes from parents come together to make a child... if you have anything you want me to explain further just let me know and I'll try to help you with it.

I know evolution is a difficult subject to learn and understand... I'm still learning myself and I've been at this a while.
But that is part of why I enjoy learning about it so much. It keeps me on my toes and it gives me more and more respect for creator to try to understand just how much goes into making things the way they are today. And to know that it isn't over yet! How amazing is it that the process of creation still continues for us to witness!

I hope that what I've said helps a little!

wa:do

ps. If I ever use a term you don't understand, let me know! I'm used to the rather odd science terms that we biologists toss around when we talk... sometimes I forget what a 'normal' word and a 'technical' word are! I try to never use such words without trying to explain them, but I understand if my explanations aren't quite good enough.

thats a pretty good start, as for DNA i have some knowledge about it, i did that stuff in chemistry when i was at school.

i also have been tolled by Autodidact about a example that involves one species of bird to change to another, that too is clear.

i hope you wouldn't mind if i asked you to tell me the basics of evolution, that would be a good start.

 

[Gharib]

Yes, since that's what the thread is about, let's do that.

actually the thread is about dissproving evoluton, but thats isn't going to happen any time soon from me.

Tell you what. Let's assume, for the purpose of this thread, that Allah is God and created everything in heaven and earth, all living things, the entire universe, O.K.? So that's not in question (here.) The only thing that science asks is, how did He do it? Did He do it by setting up a process--evolution--or did He do it by Magic Poofing? Or some other way? Science says, let's look at the evidence and find out. But science cannot tell us whether Allah created all things, so we can talk about evolution and assume that He did, O.K.?

ok lets agree to this, you tolled me this before, so i understand.

You can't accept science and reject ToE, esalem. ToE is science. It either works or it doesn't. If you think it works, then you have to accept ToE. Otherwise you're contradicting yourself.

but ToE speaks about things that are very impossible to accept, well thats what i think anyway.

There's a lot of good material on the internet, starting with the UCBerkeley page. To begin with, did you read and understand what I said about what evolution says about how new species come into being? Really understand it? You might want to go back and read it.

yes i know that example very well, i remeber it. thank you for it.

 

[painted wolf]

i hope you wouldn't mind if i asked you to tell me the basics of evolution, that would be a good start.

Not at all, I'd love to help... I hope you don't mind if I post about it later, it's just about time for me to get some sleep.

Would you like me to answer here or perhaps in a new thread?

Chemistry is a fun subject... It's giving me all kinds of head-aches right now. :biglaugh:

wa:do

 

[Gharib]

Not at all, I'd love to help... I hope you don't mind if I post about it later, it's just about time for me to get some sleep.

Would you like me to answer here or perhaps in a new thread?

Chemistry is a fun subject... It's giving me all kinds of head-aches right now. :biglaugh:

wa:do

well should i open a thread that is informative about evolution?

chemistry is fun i love chemistry.

have a good nights sleep, see you later.

 

[Tristesse]

As I said, I'm glad we agree. :yes:

Ok, I'm not sure we completely agree.

 

[MindHunter]

well should i open a thread that is informative about evolution?

chemistry is fun i love chemistry.

have a good nights sleep, see you later.

I think opening a thread to informing others about evolution would be good.

But, before doing any of that, you have to describe the basics of science. Doesn't matter if it's biology, psychology, pharmacology, etc..., they all revolve around the basic principles.

One thing that I do with my friends when debating with them, many of whom have a diversity of beliefs, is to start off with saying what is science then removing the religious beliefs from the equation. Even saying "i don't believe in evolution" implies faith, which is going to lead to some distortion of evolution. Science is not about "i believe in this theory but not in that". No, that's the result of mixing various religious beliefs with science and getting more or less a homogenious mixture that is going to be a mess. If you are to mix them, it should result in a heterogenious mixture. If we cant start off with the basic elements, then going to describe evolution can be a disaster.

After all of that, then you can begin with describing evolution. Life painted wolf and others, I too am a biology student, 2nd year university (exams in april) then 3rd year. I'm not the most qualified of people but I have a half-decent understanding of evolution and the various cellular processes and genetics.

 

[Gharib]

I think opening a thread to informing others about evolution would be good.

But, before doing any of that, you have to describe the basics of science. Doesn't matter if it's biology, psychology, pharmacology, etc..., they all revolve around the basic principles.

One thing that I do with my friends when debating with them, many of whom have a diversity of beliefs, is to start off with saying what is science then removing the religious beliefs from the equation. Even saying "i don't believe in evolution" implies faith, which is going to lead to some distortion of evolution. Science is not about "i believe in this theory but not in that". No, that's the result of mixing various religious beliefs with science and getting more or less a homogenious mixture that is going to be a mess. If you are to mix them, it should result in a heterogenious mixture. If we cant start off with the basic elements, then going to describe evolution can be a disaster.

After all of that, then you can begin with describing evolution. Life painted wolf and others, I too am a biology student, 2nd year university (exams in april) then 3rd year. I'm not the most qualified of people but I have a half-decent understanding of evolution and the various cellular processes and genetics.

the thing is, science is part of islam, it is not sepratable, we do not separate science from the religion, god tells us to discover things. i cannot look at science without reflecting on my religion, but i am willing to listen to all the ideas and info that anyone is willing to tell me. i wont dissagre with anyone due to religious beliefs, but instead i might as why this whay that, from my own missunderstanding.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Thats true, and there are many religious people who except evolution.

Some except, it some accept it.

But the beauty of evolution is that it gives a much better explanation without the need for a god.

Out of curiosity, why is it "better?"

 

[darkendless]

Some except it some accept it.
Out of curiosity, why is it "better?"

Its a lot easier to understand thats for sure. Science is a lot more ordered. TBH ive read the bible and i can never find 99% of the stuff people on this forum quote even when they give references to the book and chapter.

The science behind evolution is visible in a mechanisms in life. I think being able to demonstrate a point goes a long way.

As a student of an earth science, "God created everything" and "the world is so complex that God had to have made it" are childsplay. Its awful to see such beautiful science being murdered by creationists who do their upmost not to understand so they can keep living in their simple world.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

ok first of all i wan't to start with the chance thing, or indetermination, the creation of life. does anyone have any knowledge of this to disscus it?

i will oppose many views on this, but i will be keeping an open mind ok.

so i'm basically interested in how did everything come to existence by itself.

i do believe that things come to existence by itslef, because god exists from - infinity to + infinity, nothing created him, he just happens to be there, so if i say that i do not believe in things just being there without being created i would not be a muslim.

but since i believe in a god creator, i belive that humans have a purpose in life, to worship that god that created them, and they didn't come about by chance, they were created. so why would science say that we came about by chance or randomness?

What science has are very good, and plausible explainations, as to how both abiogenesis and past evolutionary events could have happened. The operative word here is "could." Science has the most plausible option out of available options. The creation accounts in scriptures do not explain very well what we see in the natural world. For the scriptural accounts to be true they need to be describing something other than what we see in the natural world.

What most people, "religionists" if you will, try to do is point to some particular part of the explainations of historical natural world events and say that the explaination that science gives in a particular instance is wrong (and it may well be) and then say that the whole explaination is wrong. The logic is that if they are wrong with one explaination then all other explainations are wrong as well. Unfortunately those who try and argue against natural world explanaitions for events have no plausible alternative explainations. Either they are just far outnumbered in doing research, are looking in the wrong direction, or have no leg to stand on.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Its a lot easier to understand thats for sure. Science is a lot more ordered. TBH ive read the bible and i can never find 99% of the stuff people on this forum quote even when they give references to the book and chapter.

The science behind evolution is visible in a mechanisms in life. I think being able to demonstrate a point goes a long way.

As a student of an earth science, "God created everything" and "the world is so complex that God had to have made it" are childsplay. Its awful to see such beautiful science being murdered by creationists who do their upmost not to understand so they can keep living in their simple world.

I would think that "God did it" is the easiest explaination of all.

 

[darkendless]

I would think that "God did it" is the easiest explaination of all.

Thats not an explanation, more a temporary excuse until something better comes along.

 

[Tristesse]

Some except, it some accept it.
Out of curiosity, why is it "better?"

oops, I'm always typing faster than my brain processes. yes accept. I'm not sure that I meant to put better, but what I meant was it gives an explanation without the need for a god, you can put a god into the equation, but there is no need for it to be there. When people say, well it was god who got the ball rolling for evolution. Their doing it mostly to fill a personal feeling of what they would like to be true.

 

[MindHunter]

the thing is, science is part of islam, it is not sepratable, we do not separate science from the religion, god tells us to discover things. i cannot look at science without reflecting on my religion, but i am willing to listen to all the ideas and info that anyone is willing to tell me. i wont dissagre with anyone due to religious beliefs, but instead i might as why this whay that, from my own missunderstanding.

Science in general, is different than religion. Look at the basic principles: religion is based off of faith, complete subjectivity, whereas science is based off of theories, experiments, hypotheses, and is objective. The two are fundamentally different.

Asking about something due to your misunderstanding is fine, nothing wrong with that. But, asking how a scientific theory "works" or debating it whilst reflecting upon your religion is where any half-decent scientist will separate religion from science. The two can co-exist, however, you cannot slop them together, or want to be scientific but use research methods that your religion tells you. Doing that, is being biased heavily towards your religion.

However, being willing to listen is great. I've attempted to debate with others in real-life, and I could hardly even begin to explain without them going more or less :ignore::ignore::ignore::ignore::ignore:.

 

[D111]

Everything evolves. You were a child at one point, and now you are an adult. Evolution is as simple as that.