Who's arguing? were having a conversation, and does calling someone a heathen really make you feel better? Because it really doesn't do anything to help your case.
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Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?
- Thread starter Im an Atheist
- Start date
Who's arguing? were having a conversation, and does calling someone a heathen really make you feel better? Because it really doesn't do anything to help your case.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
So what happened to the OP and evidence?
Or is faith enough to trump all? I certainly believe faith is important, but it should be able to survive the addition of reality.
Is a holy book all the evidence that the religious need? If so, which book?
wa:do
Or is faith enough to trump all? I certainly believe faith is important, but it should be able to survive the addition of reality.
Is a holy book all the evidence that the religious need? If so, which book?
wa:do
I think the only side here with actual evidence is the evolution camp. Logical fallacies can only get you so far. And if someones beliefs are threatened by logic and reason, than maybe what they believe just isn't true. Things that are true should be able to stand up in the face of evidence and reason.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
People: I think what emil is saying is that ToE is true, and for him is evidence of the glory of God. It's kind of like Ken Miller or one of those guys. capishe? (sp?)
OmarKhayyam
Well-Known Member
Well, maybe. I think that is giving him more credit than he deserves and his most recent posts support that view, IMO. But hey - call it as you will.
He is now on my ignore list and will forever so remain.:cover:
I have been looking into Ken Millers works, what is free on the net that is, particularly his statement that there is evidence of evolution in humans from apes in the alleged fusion in chromosome two, I bought a book by Francis S. Collins that goes on the same lines as Miller, but I do not completely agreed with this chromosomal fusion thing, I dont know if more studies have been made on this type of genetic accidents, but the known ones in humans are known as downs, angel babies, water babies and others, none of this genetic accidents produces a better more adapted specimen so it make me think that both Miller and Collins are making too much of what they observe in chromosome 2
Down syndrome, Down's syndrome, or trisomy 21 is a chromosomal disorder caused by the presence of all or part of an extra 21st chromosome.
The biggest question for me is: How can chromosomal defects in an ape could have produce humans?
Human Genetic Defects
Genetic defects can be the result of recessive alleles or chromosomal abnormalities. Nondisjunction is an example of a chromosomal abnormality. Deletion (where portions of chromosomes are deleted), duplication (where portions of chromosomes are duplicated), translocation (where portions are moved to another chromosome), and inversion (where portions are arranged in reverse orientation on the same chromosome) are all examples of chromosomal abnormalities.
http://library.thinkquest.org/28751/review/heredity/16.html
All this brings more questions than answers, but it is clear to me that it could not be a random fortuity, mindless event and the change (defect) has little chance of reproducing into a new viable genome. Even in this I see purpose, supernatural power and will, in what we may agree is that research into these mysteries must not be hindered in any way and that it was wrong to oppose it in earlier eras. But that is history now and science and religion should not be seen as enemies.
As the Pope said: He said evolution did not answer all the questions: Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, Where does everything come from?
This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favour of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
you are comparing apples and oranges here... ploidy and chromosomal fusion are very different things. For example our fusion didn't get rid of any of the genes we need to function.
Trisomy 21 however does mess with the gene number...
In our case the fusion happened at a place where no damage was done to our gene count.
Also non-disjunction isn't always a bad thing... you have several of these in your genes right now. Everyone does.
Sometimes they are harmless... sometimes they are harmful (leading cause of miscarriage)... sometimes they are bad but survivable... in the case of Cru-du-chat and other illnesses.
wa:do
The thing is that evolution from apes to human is a step up and all the known chromosomal defect produced an inferior offspring, plus even in the case of closely related species they are mules. So what happened to Chromosome 2 does not follow the natural law, it is supernatural and willful and we are back to ID.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Actually no...
Humans didn't just pop into being because of the fusion... there were a lot of other changes that happened between the fusion and us.
Not all chromosomal changes produce "inferior offspring" unless you think you are inferior, because you have at least one of those "defects". (As do I and everyone else).
What happened to Chromosome 2 does follow natural law and it has happened to several species several times. (zebra species have between 32 and 46 chromosomes for example) Unless God did the same thing for zebras as he did for us?
wa:do
No one is saying evolution answers all the questions. But it does answer the perceived "design" we attribute to lifeforms.
OmarKhayyam
Well-Known Member
"No one is saying evolution answers all the questions."
No they aren't and in any case these "Why" questions are not scientific ones.
And the pope's asinine remark reflects more ignorance than anything else. It is like saying he read the entire manual for his coffee maker and found nothing about how to program his TV remote.
No they aren't and in any case these "Why" questions are not scientific ones.
And the pope's asinine remark reflects more ignorance than anything else. It is like saying he read the entire manual for his coffee maker and found nothing about how to program his TV remote.
haha Well, the pope before this one, understood and accepted evolution. So, when anyone tries to use this new pope as a guidance for authority on these issues, I just have to laugh. As if the last pope's telephone to "god" broke.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Well Miller and Collins believe, as you do, that evolution demonstrates God's power at work, so you shouldn't have a problem with their conclusions.
Most mutations are neutral in effect. Some are harmful. Only a few are beneficial, but those will tend to persist, reproduce and spread throughout the population. You see why?
It's a bit presumptious to assert that leading Biologists and geneticists are "making too much" of something you just learned the existence of, don't you think?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Exactly, nor does it try to. The question is way out side the scope of the Theory. It does however answer the important questions: How did there come to be so many different species on earth, and why do they seem so suited to their environments?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Mistaken on all counts. 1. Human are a species of ape; there is no evolution from ape to human.
2. Evolution from pre-hominids to hominids is not a step up. Evolution has no "up." It's merely an issue of better adaptation to the current environment.
3. This fusion did not create humans, it merely illustrates or demonstrates part of the story of how we got here.
4. No, it's fully explained by purely natural occurence, the fusion, the inheritance, all fully understood mechanism.
5. You keep contradicting yourself and looking for evidence of God from science, after asserting that you agree that science cannot prove or disprove God.
6. ID is bunk. That doesn't mean that there is no God, just that it is not science's job to find or demonstrate Him, and the project to do so is fundamentally misguided.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
You're comparing very dissimilar things. Trisomy 21 involves an extra chromosome, whereas what happened in the human line regarding chromosome 2 does not. Instead, the amount of genetic material remains the same, just arranged differently. It's referred to as a "Robertsonian Translocation" and is relatively common (we've seen it in horses for example).
I wrote this up a number of years ago.....
_______________________________________________________________________
First, a bit of background .
All of the other great apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes, whereas humans have 23 pairs. That begs the question: If were descended from a common ancestor, how do we account for this difference in chromosome number? Obviously, if common descent is accurate there must have been either a fusion of two separate chromosomes in the human line or fission of a chromosome in the ape line.
In either case, we predict that when we closely examine the chromosomes of humans and other apes, we should see evidence of the event. As it turns out, the evidence points directly to a fusion event in the human line.
In a chromosomal fusion, two chromosomes are fused together to make a single chromosome. Typically, they are fused end to end. Now, a little more background .
Each chromosome has very distinctive sequences on each end. These end pieces are called telomeres, (in humans they have the sequence TTAGGG). Also, each telomere has a characteristic pre-telomere region preceding it.
So, if we represent the telomere region as TEL and the pre-telomere region as PRETEL, a chromosome would look like
TELPRETEL<chrom>PRETELTEL
where <chrom> represents everything between the end regions.
Given this bit of information, we can get an idea of what we would expect to see if indeed there was a chromosomal fusion in the human line.
When we compare the chromosomes of apes and humans, we can see that the fusion looks to have happened in human chromosome #2. Why? Based on the above, we see exactly what we would expect, namely human chromosome #2 has the characteristic sequences of a telomere-pre-telomere region right in the middle of it. But that's not all. We also see the reverse sequences of another telomere, pre-telomere region right after it. In other words, we see exactly what we would predict if two chromosomes were joined end to end.
The process looks something like this
Two chromosomes fuse
TELPRETEL<chrom>PRETELTELàßTELPRETEL<chrom>PRETELTEL
with the result being a single chromosome that looks like .
TELPRETEL<chrom>PRETELTELTELPRETEL<chrom>PRETELTEL
And guess what? Thats exactly what human chromosome looks like!
Another prediction is that since each chromosome has its own centromere (the central part of the chromosome), and the 2 chromosome in humans is the result of the fusion of two seperate chromosomes, then it should have two centromeres.
And that is exactly what we find. And not only does the 2 chromosome in humans have two centromeres, the remnants of the extra one corresponds with that of the apes.
Here are a couple of references that describe these findings...
Genomic structure and evolution of the ancestral chromosome fusion site in 2q13-2q14.1 and paralogous regions on other human chromosomes.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12421751&dopt=Abstract
Synteny comparison between apes and human using fine-mapping of the genome.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12376093&dopt=Abstract
Also, if we line up chimpanzee chromosomes 2p and 2q with human chromosome #2, we can clearly see how they were fused .
There are many instances of organisms with different chromosome counts interbreeding and producing viable offspring. Examples include house mice, cattle (one example even involving a fusion event similar to what we are discussing), and sheep among others.
Thats precisely what show design and non randomness, why is there life and in the case we a using human life is better answered by ID, why do you think that this is so? Also non-disjunction isn't always a bad thing... you have several of these in your genes right now. Everyone does.
Sometimes they are harmless... sometimes they are harmful to me this means that we evolving toward something and I am sure that it is human, now bock to the poor apes. Are they evolving? In our faith that is that God has a purpose and that that purpose is good because He is good, humanity are specially designed to have a communion with it designer and evolution permits a better means of communication between us and God our creator. IMO this shows purpose of design. Zebras? I have not thought of the why for the way they are, is that relevant to human evolution?
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
because there is no evidence.
yes, they are... and have been as long as we have.
Because Zebras have the same sort of chromosome fusion as humans do...
If that requires god.. then god must like Zebras just as much as humans... more so even as they have even more of them.
wa:do
Jose Fly.
Well what we are discussing is: Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?
I think that the Chromosome2 mutation in humans is evidence of a designer and this designer is God and things happen at a time of His purposeful design and will, since I believe that Evolution is true and self-evident I have no problems with evolutionist or I should not have them anyway. Your post is very good and explains the differences between genetic accidents and purposeful design which is what ID theory is. The OP is says there are plenty evidences for evolution, and is true there are, my position is that evolution is God guided and we are at stage in which an understanding of the infinite wisdom and power of God is better understood and it feels me with owe at the magnificence of God the creator.
Well what we are discussing is: Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?
I think that the Chromosome2 mutation in humans is evidence of a designer and this designer is God and things happen at a time of His purposeful design and will, since I believe that Evolution is true and self-evident I have no problems with evolutionist or I should not have them anyway. Your post is very good and explains the differences between genetic accidents and purposeful design which is what ID theory is. The OP is says there are plenty evidences for evolution, and is true there are, my position is that evolution is God guided and we are at stage in which an understanding of the infinite wisdom and power of God is better understood and it feels me with owe at the magnificence of God the creator.