Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?

[Autodidact]

Science is working on that, but be sure that there is one.

But you asserted that they do. Now you're saying you don't know what it is? Did you want to withdraw your assertion that they do--Beetles, have a purpose that is? Otherwise you're going to have a bit of a credibility problem.

No, science is not about ultimate purpose. It's not working on that, and will never find it.

 

[Tristesse]

erm... while I'm hesitant to assign 'purpose'.... If one considers niche filling a 'purpose' then I'm not sure I can agree with this.

wa:do

I was using emiliano's terminology, I didn't mean purpose in the same way he was using the word.

 

[painted wolf]

I guess that is the problem with a term like "purpose".... It's so fuzzy.

wa:do

 

[Jose Fly]

Jose Fly.
Well what we are discussing is: Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?
I think that the Chromosome2 mutation in humans is evidence of a designer and this designer is God and things happen at a time of His purposeful design and will, since I believe that Evolution is true and self-evident I have no problems with evolutionist or I should not have them anyway. Your post is very good and explains the differences between genetic accidents and purposeful design which is what ID theory is. The OP is says there are plenty evidences for evolution, and is true there are, my position is that evolution is God guided and we are at stage in which an understanding of the infinite wisdom and power of God is better understood and it feels me with owe at the magnificence of God the creator.

Exactly how is human chromosome 2 data "evidence of a designer"?

How do you differentiate between "genetic accidents" and "purposeful design"?

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"How do you differentiate between "genetic accidents" and "purposeful design"?"

By asserting there is no such thing as "accident."

Whatever phenomena you consider, whatever event you investigate, whatever evidence you uncover - GodDidIt.

Skin your knee - all part of God's eternal plan.
Blow 20G's on the horses - ditto.
Survive caner - ditto.
Die from cancer - ditto.
Draw a full house - ditto
Draw 3, 5, 2, 9 and 7 - ditto.

In this way no explanation of ANYTHING is really necessary. Because no matter what you find in the final analysis - GodDidIt.

All that is required for this to work is the initial assumption - GodDidIt. That made, all else follows.

See how easy that was?

 

[emiliano]

I’ll to go back to earlier post and give you one but I remind you of what I said earlier “am not a scientist and I am sure that they are too busy studying Chimps and hominids” I know of one beetle that has a known purpose for it existence: The dung Beetle.
Why are dung beetles important?

Dung beetles serve a number of very important ecological functions. The digging activity of tunnelling beetles results in the aeration of soil as well as the transfer of nutrients to the soil by releasing the nutrients in the dung. Also, dung beetles break down dung and prevent flies from breeding in it.
http://www.austmus.gov.au/factsheets/dung-beetles.htm#what
As I agree with you that there thousand of different species of them I hope that you understand that I don’t know each of them purpose nor I have the time for a research.

 

[emiliano]

Exactly how is human chromosome 2 data "evidence of a designer"?
How do you differentiate between "genetic accidents" and "purposeful design"?

This show the How of evolution and the purpose is that at one stage this mutation was to happen, it was designed that way, I don't know why it happen to some kind of the apes and not others. Do you know? I don't believe that this is an accident because it is obvious that it isn't accidental but purposeful that's how I made the difference, you said that the fused chromosomes fit perfectly and that prove that fusion took place, what about the other apes, do they have these chromosomes and why didn’t they fuse?

 

[emiliano]

But you asserted that they do. Now you're saying you don't know what it is? Did you want to withdraw your assertion that they do--Beetles, have a purpose that is? Otherwise you're going to have a bit of a credibility problem.

No, science is not about ultimate purpose. It's not working on that, and will never find it.

Naturally science is more interested in knowing about beetles that are beneficial to us but some a said to be destructive, I don’t have the time to research all the beetles so this will have to suffice, these creatures have a purpose in the creation, they were designed for a purpose, they are what they for a reason and are the way they are for a purpose, some are biological controllers of pests and weeds or work the soil to benefit cultivation.

Beneficial organisms




Coccinella septempunctata, a beneficial beetle

• Both the larvae and adults of some ladybirds (family Coccinellidae) are found in aphid colonies. Other lady beetles feed on scale insects and mealybugs. If normal food sources are scarce, they may feed on other things, such as small caterpillars, young plant bugs, honeydew and nectar.
• Ground beetles (family Carabidae) are common predators of many different insects and other arthropods, including fly eggs, caterpillars, wireworms and others.
• Plant-feeding beetles are often important beneficial insects, controlling problem weeds. Some flea beetles of the genus Aphthona feed on leafy spurge, a considerable weed of rangeland in western North America.

Some farmers develop beetle banks to foster and provide cover for beneficial beetles.
Beetles of the Dermestidae family are often used in taxidermy to clean bones of remaining flesh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetle#Beneficial_organisms

 

[Tristesse]

I’ll to go back to earlier post and give you one but I remind you of what I said earlier “am not a scientist and I am sure that they are too busy studying Chimps and hominids” I know of one beetle that has a known purpose for it existence: The dung Beetle.
Why are dung beetles important?

Dung beetles serve a number of very important ecological functions. The digging activity of tunnelling beetles results in the aeration of soil as well as the transfer of nutrients to the soil by releasing the nutrients in the dung. Also, dung beetles break down dung and prevent flies from breeding in it.
http://www.austmus.gov.au/factsheets/dung-beetles.htm#what
As I agree with you that there thousand of different species of them I hope that you understand that I don’t know each of them purpose nor I have the time for a research.

Ok, but you made the claim that they all served a "purpose" So, emiliano, before you make such bold claims, please think about what your saying.

 

[emiliano]

Why do people assert their constitutional right to be wrong? Of course that's your right, but how is that relevant? It doesn't make your argument any more correct.

Well, emil, just for clarity's sake, rather than lead people to believe you're questioning science, or asserting ID, which is anti-science, maybe we should start a thread to discuss your assertion that science proves the glory of God. What say you?

I do have a couple of threads that I like to start but what I am participating now occupies most of my available time, this one has been and is interesting and helpful, for example I finally decided what book to buy next: Creation and Evolution

A Conference with Pope Benedict XVI

 

[emiliano]

Ok, but you made the claim that they all served a "purpose" So, emiliano, before you make such bold claims, please think about what your saying.

What I have posted will have to do, beetles have an important ecological purpose for their existence and are designed perfectly for that purpose.

 

[painted wolf]

This show the How of evolution and the purpose is that at one stage this mutation was to happen, it was designed that way, I don't know why it happen to some kind of the apes and not others. Do you know?

That is the nature of mutation. There are not a lot of ape species at the moment so we can't exactly tell if other prehistoric apes also had fusion events in their history.

I don't believe that this is an accident because it is obvious that it isn't accidental but purposeful that's how I made the difference, you said that the fused chromosomes fit perfectly and that prove that fusion took place, what about the other apes, do they have these chromosomes and why didn’t they fuse?

Again I'm going to caution you to not jump to conclusions. This is not the 'magic moment' of human evolution. There is no way to tell that this obviously anything.
Fuse a chimps chromosomes like ours and you don't end up with a human being... you end up with a chimp with fused chromosomes. There were a lot of other changes that had to happen that make us human beings.
Neanderthals had the same fusion and Lucy did too...

There is no evidence that this was a purposeful mutation any more than the mutations of the Zebras was purposeful. You need to be very careful asserting design in otherwise common events.

What I have posted will have to do, beetles have an important ecological purpose for their existence and are designed perfectly for that purpose.

Nothing is perfect... Again you need to be careful in your assertions. No animal is perfectly designed for anything... we all have flaws.

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

Naturally science is more interested in knowing about beetles that are beneficial to us but some a said to be destructive, I don’t have the time to research all the beetles so this will have to suffice, these creatures have a purpose in the creation, they were designed for a purpose, they are what they for a reason and are the way they are for a purpose, some are biological controllers of pests and weeds or work the soil to benefit cultivation.

Beneficial organisms




Coccinella septempunctata, a beneficial beetle

• Both the larvae and adults of some ladybirds (family Coccinellidae) are found in aphid colonies. Other lady beetles feed on scale insects and mealybugs. If normal food sources are scarce, they may feed on other things, such as small caterpillars, young plant bugs, honeydew and nectar.
• Ground beetles (family Carabidae) are common predators of many different insects and other arthropods, including fly eggs, caterpillars, wireworms and others.
• Plant-feeding beetles are often important beneficial insects, controlling problem weeds. Some flea beetles of the genus Aphthona feed on leafy spurge, a considerable weed of rangeland in western North America.

Some farmers develop beetle banks to foster and provide cover for beneficial beetles.
Beetles of the Dermestidae family are often used in taxidermy to clean bones of remaining flesh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetle#Beneficial_organisms

You contradict yourself with every post, which is why everyone is confused about your position. Did these beetles evolve as described in ToE, or, were they designed?

 

[Autodidact]

What I have posted will have to do, beetles have an important ecological purpose for their existence and are designed perfectly for that purpose.

Probably every creature fits a specific ecological niche. ToE explains why this is. To assert they were "designed for this purpose" denies that theory. You say you accept it, but I don't think you understand it.

 

[emiliano]

That is the nature of mutation. There are not a lot of ape species at the moment so we can't exactly tell if other prehistoric apes also had fusion events in their history. wa:do

Does this means that there are no evidences for evolution?

Again I'm going to caution you to not jump to conclusions. This is not the 'magic moment' of human evolution. There is no way to tell that this obviously anything.

So science does not provide evidences and people posting in favor of evolution don’t have them.

Fuse a chimps chromosomes like ours and you don't end up with a human being... you end up with a chimp with fused chromosomes. There were a lot of other changes that had to happen that make us human beings.

That is not what Jose wrote.

Neanderthals had the same fusion and Lucy did too.

What I wanted to point out to Jose is that the fact that they fit does not prove that it happened that way that his conclusion is speculative, I must remind you of the OP “Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have? There is quite substantial evidence to support evolution, and the theory of creationism.
Tell me your thoughts, facts and any theories of your own”

There is no evidence that this was a purposeful mutation any more than the mutations of the Zebras was purposeful. You need to be very careful asserting design in otherwise common events.

I am doing what the OP asked for; the purpose of this mutation was to produce a Zebra.

[/size]Nothing is perfect... Again you need to be careful in your assertions. No animal is perfectly designed for anything... we all have flaws.[/font]

What flaw does a Zebra have? A Zebra has everything that is required to be what they are. Zebras, and so it goes for humans.

 

[emiliano]

Probably every creature fits a specific ecological niche. ToE explains why this is. To assert they were "designed for this purpose" denies that theory. You say you accept it, but I don't think you understand it.

That is because you are a complex individual, and I don't understand you. What are driving at? TOE theory only states that this mutation took millions of years to complete. Meaning that the Genesis account is allegorical and that it isn't a scientific treatise.

 

[emiliano]

You contradict yourself with every post, which is why everyone is confused about your position. Did these beetles evolve as described in ToE, or, were they designed?

It seem to me that what is troubling you (didn’t know that were other confused ones) it the concept of God eternity and that He is not affected by time, what ID say is that God’s commands for thing to be took millions of our years to developed, time as humans know it is their own invention, God is not subjected to this measuring tool, thus TOE theory doesn’t disprove the existence of the designer.

 

[painted wolf]

Does this means that there are no evidences for evolution?

Not at all... just that you can't assume the genetics of a dead end ape linage like Oreopithecus who has no living relations. You can use genetics to determine what ancestors of living species were like and to compare living species. (and if lucky, some extinct ones like Neanderthals)

So science does not provide evidences and people posting in favor of evolution don’t have them

Again, you are jumping to conclusions... There were several mutations that lead to humans, not one. We have evidence of many of them... but more work needs to be done to track them all down. The fusion event was just one of several moments in our history that made us what we are today.

That is not what Jose wrote.

I'm not sure what Jose wrote... but I doubt that it implied that the chromosomal fusion was a 'poof you have humans' event.

What I wanted to point out to Jose is that the fact that they fit does not prove that it happened that way that his conclusion is speculative, I must remind you of the OP “Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have? There is quite substantial evidence to support evolution, and the theory of creationism.
Tell me your thoughts, facts and any theories of your own”

What I want to point out to you... is to be careful of claiming "obvious design" where there is no such thing. A little knowledge can get you into trouble when you start making leaps of logic that are unsupportable by a deeper examination of the facts.

I am doing what the OP asked for; the purpose of this mutation was to produce a Zebra.

So God purposefully designed each of the three species of zebra and their collective eight subspecies? This isn't ID this is undiluted creationism.
Be careful in assigning purpose to mutations... you may be asked what the purpose of the mutation that causes Trisomy 21 (down's syndrome) is.

What flaw does a Zebra have? A Zebra has everything that is required to be what they are. Zebras, and so it goes for humans.

Their hind-gut fermentation system for feeding on grass is actually very poorly thought out, just to single on one feature. The for-gut fermentation system in Artiodactyles like cows is much better and more effective.
Indeed the spread of the Artiodactyla has lead to the slow extinction of the Horses group the Perissodactyla. Today the Horses, Tapiers and Rhino's are but a shadow of their former diversity.
God didn't design that very well. (or he just doesn't like horses and thier kin as much)

wa:do

 

[tumbleweed41]

It seem to me that what is troubling you (didn’t know that were other confused ones) it the concept of God eternity and that He is not affected by time, what ID say is that God’s commands for thing to be took millions of our years to developed, time as humans know it is their own invention, God is not subjected to this measuring tool, thus TOE theory doesn’t disprove the existence of the designer.

ToE is not meant to, nor should it be used to refute the existence of "god/gods/designer". I believe this has been pointed out many times.
What it does refute is a literal translation of the Old Testament used by Young Earth Creationists, and Intelligent Design proponents. Or using "Godidit" as an excuse for unscientific claims.

 

[Autodidact]

That is because you are a complex individual, and I don't understand you. What are driving at? TOE theory only states that this mutation took millions of years to complete. Meaning that the Genesis account is allegorical and that it isn't a scientific treatise.

ToE says that the explanation for why creatures appear to be designed is that they evolved via descent with modification plus natural selection to fit their ecological niches. It provides a naturalistic explanation for the apparent design. Another way to put this would be to say that ToE is the mechanism for achieving God's design through natural means, not God magically directing that design. If you assert that this natural process: undirected mutations plus natural selection, cannot account for the apparent design, then you are arguing against ToE.