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Evolution, what evidence is there and what does creationism have?

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I don’t understand your compulsion to replay to my posts,
Uh, because that's what the forum's for?
anyway I am about to believe that some human are apes, and that the apes in out zoo are just waiting to match them, if evolution gave humans an advantage, why do we still have apes?
Please tell me you're joking. This is one of the classic "idiot-fundy-creationist" lines. Americans descended from European, Asian and African immigrants. Why are there still Europeans, Africans and Asians?
. These poor creatures don’t have a fossil record.
You mean the fossils I posted don't exist? Where do you think they got this picture?
And I must tell ID is not in scripture is a theory.
This sentence doesn't scan.
BTW this is what I wrote “now macro-evolution is another thing; apes turning into humans and the like are something that science will never be able to prove”
I know that's what you wrote. It's gibberish--makes no sense.
The Teleogical Case for God

<snip irrelevant argument>
Why can you not grasp that this thread is not about the existence of God? We're all assuming, for the purpose of this thread, that God exists. Now can we get back on topic?
Another thing I am getting tired of your personal attacks I realize that this is due to discussion that we have had and that I view you life style as objectionable, so this is a good time as any to cut loose as I won&#8217;t change my mind
I'm not attacking you, emiliano. I don't care what you think about my way of life; I feel the same way about yours. Please try to stick to the issues.
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
The one on the right hand side of the photo belongs to Quasimodo the Notradame hunch man.
I take it you have no idea which of these are hominid and which are not? You know--those two things that you claim are completely different from each other?
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
ID court ownage:
page 81-89 of the Judges report from the Dover triall said:
It is readily apparent to the Court that the only attribute of design that biological systems appear to share with human artifacts is their complex appearance, i.e. if it looks complex or designed, it must have been designed. (23:73 (Behe)). This inference to design based upon the appearance of a“purposeful arrangement of parts” is a completely subjective proposition,determined in the eye of each beholder and his/her viewpoint concerning thecomplexity of a system. Although both Professors Behe and Minnich assert thatthere is a quantitative aspect to the inference, on cross-examination they admittedthat there is no quantitative criteria for determining the degree of complexity or
number of parts that bespeak design, rather than a natural process. (23:50 (Behe); 38:59 (Minnich)).
…
Accordingly, the purported positive argument for ID does not satisfy the ground rules of science which require testable hypotheses based upon natural explanations. (3:101-03 (Miller)). ID is reliant upon forces acting outside of the natural world, forces that we cannot see, replicate, control or test, which have produced changes in this world. While we take no position on whether such forces exist, they are simply not testable by scientific means and therefore cannot qualify as part of the scientific process or as a scientific theory. (3:101-02 (Miller)).
…
Before discussing Defendants’ claims about evolution, we initially note that an overwhelming number of scientists, as reflected by every scientific association that has spoken on the matter, have rejected the ID proponents’ challenge to evolution. Moreover, Plaintiffs’ expert in biology, Dr. Miller, a widely-recognized biology professor at Brown University who has written university-level and highschool biology textbooks used prominently throughout the nation, provided unrebutted testimony that evolution, including common descent and natural selection, is “overwhelmingly accepted” by the scientific community and that every major scientific association agrees. (1:94-100 (Miller)).
…
In analyzing such distortion, we turn again to Pandas, the book to which students are expressly referred in the disclaimer. Defendants hold out Pandas as representative of ID and Plaintiffs’ experts agree in that regard. (16:83 (Padian); 1:107-08 (Miller)). A series of arguments against evolutionary theory found in Pandas involve paleontology, which studies the life of the past and the fossil record. Plaintiffs’ expert Professor Padian was the only testifying expert witness with any expertise in paleontology.15 His testimony therefore remains unrebutted. Dr. Padian’s demonstrative slides, prepared on the basis of peer-reviewing scientific literature, illustrate how Pandas systematically distorts and misrepresents established, important evolutionary principles.
We will provide several representative examples of this distortion. First, Pandas misrepresents the “dominant form of understanding relationships” between organisms, namely, the tree of life, represented by classification determined via the method of cladistics. (16:87-97 (Padian); P-855.6-855.19). Second, Pandas misrepresents “homology,” the “central concept of comparative biology,” that allowed scientists to evaluate comparable parts among organisms for classification purposes for hundreds of years. (17:27-40 (Padian); P-855.83-855.102). Third, Pandas fails to address the well-established biological concept of exaptation, which involves a structure changing function, such as fish fins evolving fingers and bones to become legs for weight-bearing land animals. (16:146-48 (Padian)). Dr. Padian testified that ID proponents fail to address exaptation because they deny that organisms change function, which is a view necessary to support abrupt appearance.
Finally, Dr. Padian’s unrebutted testimony demonstrates that Pandas distorts and misrepresents evidence in the fossil record about pre-
Cambrian-era fossils, the evolution of fish to amphibians, the evolution of small carnivorous dinosaurs into birds, the evolution of the mammalian middle ear, and the evolution of whales from land animals. (16:107-17, 16:117-31, 16:131-45, 17:6-9, 17:17-27 (Padian); P-855.25-855.33, P-855.34-855.45, P-855.46-855.55, P-855.56-866.63, P-855.64-855.82).
In addition to Dr. Padian, Dr. Miller also testified that Pandas presents discredited science. Dr. Miller testified that Pandas’ treatment of biochemical similarities between organisms is “inaccurate and downright false” and explained how Pandas misrepresents basic molecular biology concepts to advance design theory through a series of demonstrative slides. (1:112 (Miller)). Consider, for example, that he testified as to how Pandas misinforms readers on the standard evolutionary relationships between different types of animals, a distortion which Professor Behe, a “critical reviewer” of Pandas who wrote a section within the book, affirmed. (1:113-17 (Miller); P-854.9-854.16; 23:35-36 (Behe)).16 In addition, Dr. Miller refuted Pandas’ claim that evolution cannot account for new genetic information and pointed to more than three dozen peer-reviewed scientific publications showing the origin of new genetic information by evolutionary processes. (1:133-36 (Miller); P-245). In summary, Dr. Miller testified that Pandas misrepresents molecular biology and genetic principles, as well as the current state of scientific knowledge in those areas in order to teach readers that common descent and natural selection are not scientifically sound. (1:139-42(Miller)).

Accordingly, the one textbook to which the Dover ID Policy directs students contains outdated concepts and badly flawed science, as recognized by even the defense experts in this case.

A final indicator of how ID has failed to demonstrate scientific warrant is the complete absence of peer-reviewed publications supporting the theory.
…
The evidence presented in this case demonstrates that ID is not supported by any peer-reviewed research, data or publications. Both Drs. Padian and Forrest testified that recent literature reviews of scientific and medical-electronic databases disclosed no studies supporting a biological concept of ID. (17:42-43 (Padian); 11:32-33 (Forrest)). On cross-examination, Professor Behe admitted that: “There are no peer reviewed articles by anyone advocating for intelligent design supported by pertinent experiments or calculations which provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred.” (22:22-23 (Behe)).

Additionally, Professor Behe conceded that there are no peer-reviewed papers supporting his claims that complex molecular systems, like the bacterial flagellum, the blood-clotting cascade, and the immune system, were intelligently designed. (21:61-62 (complex molecular systems), 23:4-5 (immune system), and 22:124-25 (blood-clotting cascade) (Behe)). In that regard, there are no peer-reviewed articles supporting Professor Behe’s argument that certain complex molecular structures are “irreducibly complex.”17 (21:62, 22:124-25 (Behe)). In addition to
failing to produce papers in peer-reviewed journals, ID also features no scientific research or testing. (28:114-15 (Fuller); 18:22-23, 105-06 (Behe)).

After this searching and careful review of ID as espoused by its proponents, as elaborated upon in submissions to the Court, and as scrutinized over a six week trial, we find that ID is not science and cannot be adjudged a valid, accepted scientific theory as it has failed to publish in peer-reviewed journals, engage in research and testing, and gain acceptance in the scientific community. ID, as noted, is grounded in theology, not science. Accepting for the sake of argument its proponents’, as well as Defendants’ argument that to introduce ID to students will encourage critical thinking, it still has utterly no place in a science curriculum.
Moreover, ID’s backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID.
To conclude and reiterate, we express no opinion on the ultimate veracity of ID as a supernatural explanation. However, we commend to the attention of those who are inclined to superficially consider ID to be a true “scientific” alternative to evolution without a true understanding of the concept the foregoing detailed analysis. It is our view that a reasonable, objective observer would, after reviewing both the voluminous record in this case, and our narrative, reach the inescapable conclusion that ID is an interesting theological argument, but that it is not science.
 

bluZero

Active Member
Can you explain the barrier that prevents micro from becoming macro? Until you do you are drawing a distinction without any grounds for doing so.

Actually science has proven that with two independent lines of evidence.

Firstly, we have the fossils which show the change from an ape-like ancestor to modern humans:
hominids2.jpg


Secondly, we have sequenced the human and chimpanzee genomes. Comparing the two leads to many evidences proving our common ancestry. The fusion in human chromosome number 2, the prevalence of identical endogenous retro-viruses, the deactivated olfactory genes still present in human DNA, the presence of deactivated vitamin-C genes in both, etc. etc.

This is simply horse-manure. You can&#8217;t claim to acknowledge the bible isn&#8217;t a scientific treatise while using that same bible to deny scientific findings. And that is precisely what you did when you questioned macroevolution ( a term that is pretty meaningless in this &#8216;debate&#8217; &#8211; this video is a great explanation of why YouTube - Micro vs. Macro Growth ). You can&#8217;t have it both ways emiliano.

Did you ever read this account of the bible M H? It is no surprise to find D N A, or R N A, or any other earth born evidence in apes, or for that matter any living creature that roams the earth. (Gen 1:24) And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. What evidence you have just substantiates creationism.:yes:
I am not here to convert, or convict you, just show you the light.
 

bluZero

Active Member
So blu... you think that humans and apes are the same "kind"?

wa:do

No, humans HAVE a soul, and have to answer to the creator, animals do not. When the saved soul dies bodily it returns to dust, his spirit goes to be with God and it awaits the resurrection of the body. When an animal such as an ape dies it just dies, and turns to dust. The only likeness may be in its structure, But hey, God knows what he is doing. He probably put it that way so that he can confound those that think themselves to be wise. Like a separating of the wheat and the tares.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
So where does the soul come in?
Would Neanderthals have a soul? They had spirituality, buried their dead... but they wern't human.

wa:do
 

bluZero

Active Member
So where does the soul come in?
Would Neanderthals have a soul? They had spirituality, buried their dead... but they wern't human.

wa:do

Considering they were also created in the image of God and classified as humans, then they are subject to the same as any human. None humans of any type do not have the soul.
Neanderthal |n&#275;&#712;and&#601;r&#952;ôl|
noun (also Neanderthal man)
an extinct species of human that was widely distributed in ice-age Europe

The date is spurious! between c. 120,000&#8211;35,000 years ago, with a receding forehead and prominent brow ridges. The Neanderthals were associated with the Mousterian flint industry of the Middle Paleolithic. &#8226; Homo neanderthalensis; now usually regarded as a separate species from H. sapiens and probably at the end of a different evolutionary line. Just before the deluge their were giants in the earth. Who knows what they looked like except for bone findings.
&#8226; figurative an uncivilized, unintelligent, or uncouth person, esp. a man : the stereotype of the mechanic as a macho Neanderthal.This is all nothing but satanic hype.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
The date is well supported by chemistry and physics.
They were hardly giants.. the average human is taller than than the average Neanderthal.
The stereotype is unfortunate.. they were talented, caring and sophisticated people.

So anything in the Homo genus is created in the 'image of god'?

wa:do
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Did you ever read this account of the bible M H? It is no surprise to find D N A, or R N A, or any other earth born evidence in apes, or for that matter any living creature that roams the earth. (Gen 1:24) And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. What evidence you have just substantiates creationism.:yes:
I am not here to convert, or convict you, just show you the light.

Did you notice that your post did not respond to madhair's whatsoever?
Why do you keep talking about the Bible?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
blu:

DID YOU UNDERSTAND MY FISH EXAMPLE? DO YOU AGREE THAT THIS CAN BRING ABOUT A NEW SPECIES? WHY ARE YOU SO RUDE?
 

bluZero

Active Member
The date is well supported by chemistry and physics.
They were hardly giants.. the average human is taller than than the average Neanderthal.
The stereotype is unfortunate.. they were talented, caring and sophisticated people.

So anything in the Homo genus is created in the 'image of god'?

wa:do
All SAME IS SAME. AND BY ANY OTHER NAME, the SAME IS SAME.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Yes I understand, and why do you say rude, prove it, show me where I am as rude as trisstesse.

Because you keep ignoring my questions. It's very bad manners. O.K., you understood it. Great. Now please answer the second question, which I have now asked you seven times:

DO YOU AGREE THAT THIS PROCESS CAN RESULT IN A NEW SPECIES?
 

bluZero

Active Member
ID court ownage:

I am at a loss here, I do not Know what ID is. And I do agree, that like church and state, church and science should be separate studies, That which is of the flesh is flesh, and that which is of he spirit is spirt, and they are constantly at war with one another. And for that matter they will always be in disagreement.:troll:
 
I am at a loss here, I do not Know what ID is. And I do agree, that like church and state, church and science should be separate studies, That which is of the flesh is flesh, and that which is of he spirit is spirt, and they are constantly at war with one another. And for that matter they will always be in disagreement.:troll:
ID - Intelligent Design.

It's funny, you go on and **** people off and call them trolls. You got a problem up there?
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
All SAME IS SAME. AND BY ANY OTHER NAME, the SAME IS SAME.
No need to shout...I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from on this. :cool:

If "all same is same" then how "different is different"?
Is something with half our brain size but otherwise human looking still human?
Is it based on appearance or on something deeper?

wa:do
 

bluZero

Active Member
Because you keep ignoring my questions. It's very bad manners. O.K., you understood it. Great. Now please answer the second question, which I have now asked you seven times:

DO YOU AGREE THAT THIS PROCESS CAN RESULT IN A NEW SPECIES?

I think *** you say, since they can no longer intergate, I guess calling it a new species would be to exaggerate a tad, they are an offshoot of a same genus, so why say they are new, meaning different species. Is there no other term to define it? Distant cousins that learned to adapt in foreign circumstances. like and adapted species from the same genus, oh, hybrid, right?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I think *** you say, since they can no longer intergate, I guess calling it a new species would be to exaggerate a tad, they are an offshoot of a same genus, so why say they are new, meaning different species. Is there no other term to define it? Distant cousins that learned to adapt in foreign circumstances. like and adapted species from the same genus, oh, hybrid, right?
They are "new" in the sense of newly identified, then.
 
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