Ex Christians

[-Peacemaker-]

what are you saying here?

and please don't duck lets have a respectful discourse...
i promise to hold my tongue.

I'm saying that an "inclination" is by definition not a "deed". Inclinations can lead people to take actions. I may have an inclination ot sleep with a married woman and I can either act on that feeling or I can deny myself. When people who call themselves homosexuals say "God condemns me for being who I am" what I here the saying is that they're mad because God didn't allow them to do what they felt like doing. I just don't have a ton of sympathy for such cries because every Christian is put in a situation where we have to deny ourselves inclinations we would say are from the sinful nature. For some reason, people that call themselves homosexuals seem to feel that they have a more compelling reason than the rest of us to engage some of those inclinations

 

[Vadergirl123]

so then what purpose does the idea of hell serve exactly?

It's the punishment for sin.

i mean, i wouldn't want my child to love me because i threaten to throw him into the fireplace if he didn't.

God doesn't want that either. He wants us to want a relationship with him

and like you said...there are many many people who do feel this threat and do not question god because they are afraid to.
and when making comments like "homosexuality is wrong because god says so" doesn't seem like you ever put any thought into why it is wrong...would say that statement was a statement based on blind faith?

Yes I know, which is sad because that's not who the God of the Bible is. I think I already said because God says it's wrong.

 

[Vadergirl123]

well no.
i live how i want to...
there is no problem. mutual respect and honesty is what i value.

If everyone lives how "they want to" you could have quite a few problems. That's why societies and cultures have laws.

 

[Vadergirl123]

because that is circular logic.

"i believe the bible is the word of god because it says so."

From my analogy you should've gotten that I believe the Bible because I have no reason not to.(just like I'd have no reason not to believe Sandy's letters)

you didn't believe me when i told you about the experiment, you needed it to be supported by a reliable source...

Oops I need to go back and find it. You did give me one right?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

do you mean everyone is inclined to rape someone

I can't possibly imagine how you could draw that conclusion. I'll say this much, through doing ministry I've had people confide in me some of their struggles. I can assure you that more people than you probably think suffer from such inclinations as the one quoted. I also view the church as a hospital, not a gathering place for perfect people. That being the case, I find it counter-productive to judge people for their inclinations.

 

[waitasec]

I'm saying that an "inclination" is by definition not a "deed". Inclinations can lead people to take actions. I may have an inclination ot sleep with a married woman and I can either act on that feeling or I can deny myself. When people who call themselves homosexuals say "God condemns me for being who I am" what I here the saying is that they're mad because God didn't allow them to do what they felt like doing. I just don't have a ton of sympathy for such cries because every Christian is put in a situation where we have to deny ourselves certain inclinations. For some reason, people that call themselves homosexuals seem to feel that they have a more compelling reason than the rest of us to engage some of those inclinations

speaking from my personal experience.
i have struggled with my bi sexuality ever since i can remember and never once did i ever give in to my attraction because i was raised thinking it was wrong therefore i was ashamed for feeling that way. i'm married to a wonderful man going on 18 yrs. when i met my husband he met me as a heterosexual...because i thought i was.
i came out to him only to present an dilemma for him to deal with.
'maybe you marred me not knowing who you were' and i know this is has become an issue...it's not that i'm having an affair, not at all...but i never allowed myself to travel on a road i thought would take me straight to hell.
but i am committed to my husband, and still there is this sense of what if i accepted myself as a bisexual, would i have made the same choice?

 

[waitasec]

I can't possibly imagine how you could draw that conclusion. I'll say this much, through doing ministry I've had people confide in me some of their struggles. I can assure you that more people than you probably think suffer from such inclinations as the one quoted. I also view the church as a hospital, not a gathering place for perfect people. That being the case, I find it counter-productive to judge people for their inclinations.

so if i write with my right arm, am i judged as a right handed person?

 

[Vadergirl123]

prove that it is fact.

I can't prove heaven/hell exist/don't exist. I've already stated that. It's not in my power haha Also there's no way I could "prove it" even if I wanted to because the only way for me to assure you would be that I'd have to die.

heaven is being with god.
see this is where i find a huge disconnect.
it is with our way of dealing with each other that plays an important role if we are to go to be with god in the after life, but when it comes to our relationships with those who do not make it to heaven we are all of a sudden disconnected from them, that doesn't make sense to me.

Are you saying you don't like the idea of being separated from your relatives/friends for eternity? If so, I can see what you're saying, but again everyone has to chose for themsleves, so we should try to do everything in our power to make sure they understand just how real heaven and hell are and that Jesus loves them and wants them to be in a relationship with him.

do you have children? i have an 8 yr old son, and if i were to know that he was suffering for an eternity while i was in heaven....heaven would cease to be heaven and i can't imagine why god would take my connection away from my son, a person that means the world to me a person that helps me become a better person...

No I don't, so I can only imagine what that would be like. What would you want God to do? He can't have any sin in heaven, or would you want him to make an exception for your son?

 

[Vadergirl123]

thats it?
no questions, not even curious as to why it's wrong.

Yeah originally I had some questions about why God said it's wrong, but it's because he says marriage is suppose to be between a man and a woman. Please don't think I hate homosexuals though. I have no problem befriending them, getting to know them, or trying to understand them better.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

speaking from my personal experience.
i have struggled with my bi sexuality ever since i can remember and never once did i ever give in to my attraction because i was raised thinking it was wrong therefore i was ashamed for feeling that way. i'm married to a wonderful man going on 18 yrs. when i met my husband he met me as a heterosexual...because i thought i was.
i came out to him only to present an dilemma for him to deal with.
'maybe you marred me not knowing who you were' and i know this is has become an issue...it's not that i'm having an affair, not at all...but i never allowed myself to travel on a road i thought would take me straight to hell.
but i am committed to my husband, and still there is this sense of what if i accepted myself as a bisexual, would i have made the same choice?

You may not believe this as I knwo we haven't always seen eye to eye but you've been in my prayers. FWIW, I'm sorry that you've been dealt such a hand as it sounds like it's been painful

 

[waitasec]

I can't prove heaven/hell exist/don't exist. I've already stated that. It's not in my power haha Also there's no way I could "prove it" even if I wanted to because the only way for me to assure you would be that I'd have to die.

even if you did die, i still wouldn't know.
look,
the only thing i have is my sensibility that allows me to question.
if my questions are not answered i'm not going to believe it.

Are you saying you don't like the idea of being separated from your relatives/friends for eternity? If so, I can see what you're saying, but again everyone has to chose for themsleves, so we should try to do everything in our power to make sure they understand just how real heaven and hell are and that Jesus loves them and wants them to be in a relationship with him.

but that is what i'm saying, if they don't...there is an eternal separation...but not only that there is a KNOWLEDGE that they are in torment...
knowing that how can heaven continue to be heaven?

No I don't, so I can only imagine what that would be like. What would you want God to do? He can't have any sin in heaven, or would you want him to make an exception for your son?

that is a dilemma your belief system has to figure out in order for me to get it...so far this theology can't make it make sense to me, that's why i am an ex-christian.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

so if i write with my right arm, am i judged as a right handed person?

I know that's the argument, that indulging same sex inclinations is justified by virtue of the argument that some people were "born with them".

 

[Shermana]

speaking from my personal experience.
i have struggled with my bi sexuality ever since i can remember and never once did i ever give in to my attraction because i was raised thinking it was wrong therefore i was ashamed for feeling that way. i'm married to a wonderful man going on 18 yrs. when i met my husband he met me as a heterosexual...because i thought i was.
i came out to him only to present an dilemma for him to deal with.
'maybe you marred me not knowing who you were' and i know this is has become an issue...it's not that i'm having an affair, not at all...but i never allowed myself to travel on a road i thought would take me straight to hell.
but i am committed to my husband, and still there is this sense of what if i accepted myself as a bisexual, would i have made the same choice?

There is no prohibition on female female relations in the entire Bible, OT and NT. Romans 1:26, as Augustine and others agree, is not talking about lesbianism but the same "Greek" practice that men would "likewise" practice with each other.

 

[Vadergirl123]

How can you make this judgement? How can you see that it might be better another way? You would appear to be exercising your own innate morality there. I appreciate that you think that you are incorrect but you are still doing it nonetheless.

Are you asking me why I think I'm not as smart as God?

 

[waitasec]

You may not believe this as I knwo we haven't always seen eye to eye but you've been in my prayers. FWIW, I'm sorry that you've been dealt such a hand as it sounds like it's been painful

thank you for that sentiment.

why would god present this to me...?
i was faithful to his commands i thought i meant more to him then the lilies of the field

 

[waitasec]

There is no prohibition on female female relations in the entire Bible, OT and NT. Romans 1:26, as Augustine and others agree, is not talking about lesbianism but the same "Greek" practice that men would "likewise" practice with each other.

well now you tell me
:faint:

 

[mycorrhiza]

Not less than them exactly, but in marriage a women is suppose to submit to her husband. It's wrong because God says so.

And there's nothing about the man having to submit to the woman, so therefore the woman is less than man. If you read the Bible literally, then women aren't allowed to have power of any man, but the other way around is ok.

That doesn't explain what is wrong about it. What reason would God have for banning love?

They'll have a chance to accept Christ.

I don't have a chance to do so, because I cannot bring myself to believe in Him. What about Muslims? They already believe that Jesus was a great prophet, but they don't believe that he was the son of God. Is it very likely that they will convert to Christianity if they're brought up to believe that Jesus was just a prophet?

No, you don't go to hell because you don't believe in God. You go because you're a sinner. So if that person has ever sinned than yes they will go to hell.

What if a person doesn't sin, and still doesn't believe in God? Would this person go to hell? I'm guessing that you don't think that that's possible, but in this scenario, would the person go to hell?

I'm not trying to sound rude, but why isn't it fair? Because you say it's not? And you seem to think a person's only option is hell. God's given us the opportunity to chose eternal life in heaven. You can't blame God if you go to hell.

Let's just see if we're on the same page here. I believe that we shouldn't torture people. I believe that torture is immoral. I believe that torture for all eternity is worse than not believing in God. Do you agree with any of these?

God is more loving then we are. Would you send your son to die a terrible death for people who are sinners, knowing that alot of them will reject his death or hate him?

If I could save over two billion people's lives by doing so, then yes, I would and I believe that most people would trade one person they loved for the lives of billions of people.
I wouldn't punish people who never met me for all eternity for not believing that I existed, though. If I can forgive "sinners" who don't believe I exist, why cannot God?

Yes their can be, again the God of the Bible isn't just a teddy bear God who only wants you to be happy(he's also not a tyrant). He's a just God and there's a punishment for sin, which is hell. However God gives US the opprotunity to chose heaven.

It is not proportionate to the crime committed. Hell is like capital punishment for stealing a stick of chewing gum. I have nothing against the interpretation of hell that is just being dead, because that's what I believe happens after death, so it wouldn't matter. But I don't think I deserve to be tortured for all eternity, where a billion years of torture is just the start, because I don't believe in a God that has done nothing to prove to me that He exists.


From the context in the words of Jesus, I believe that hell should be interpreted metaphorically, and not literally.

 

[waitasec]

There is no prohibition on female female relations in the entire Bible, OT and NT. Romans 1:26, as Augustine and others agree, is not talking about lesbianism but the same "Greek" practice that men would "likewise" practice with each other.

well now you tell me
:faint:

Shermana,
in all seriousness, it's not vs 26 that worried me it was this:

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

from my POV then, the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of god...

the reality of this is i suppressed my truth.

 

[Marble]

I left Roman Catholic church when I was 18 because of the church tax.
In my country, when you are member of the RCC they get 1,1% of your income as soon as you reach legal age.
But since I never believed in Jesus or Mary or the Christian God, this was merly a formal act.

 

[waitasec]

I know that's the argument, that indulging same sex inclinations is justified by virtue of the argument that some people were "born with them".

i think justified is a wrong word...it is what it is.
i'm not justified to be right handed because i use my right hand