Ex Christians

[Vadergirl123]

even if you did die, i still wouldn't know.
look,
the only thing i have is my sensibility that allows me to question.
if my questions are not answered i'm not going to believe it.

Haha oh yeah(I feel really dumb right now) and technically I did answer your question, but you just don't like the answer.

but that is what i'm saying, if they don't...there is an eternal separation...but not only that there is a KNOWLEDGE that they are in torment...
knowing that how can heaven continue to be heaven?

Yes there is, and yes you'd be heartbroken and sad for them, but you'd also have God in heaven with you. I can't really imagine what heaven will be like. Honestly when I was younger I thought it sounded like a boring place to go. I mean I figured everyone would be dressed in choir robes singing(and I'm not a singer) However God's become so real to me and there's something very awesome about seeing the creator of the universe and getting to talk to him, getting to be with Jesus for eternity. I'm looking forward to it. So even if my relatives/friends don't chose him, I'm going to still feel terrible(and I'll probably wish I could've done something different) but it's their choice. I can't change that.

that is a dilemma your belief system has to figure out in order for me to get it...so far this theology can't make it make sense to me, that's why i am an ex-christian.

Again I do understand. However we're not God.

 

[Astravalon]

Is it fair for me to assume you don't believe Jesus is God?(I'm pretty sure you don't, but I don't want to make an unfair assesement)

To be honest, I’m not as certain that Jesus is God as I once was. At the same time, I wouldn’t rule it out. I realize that even within Christianity there is some disagreement as to whether or not this is the case, because there are Scriptures that make it sound like it could be either one way or the other. Personally, I don’t think it really matters as far as his mission was concerned. Whether he was God Himself or he was just God-enabled-to-the-max, he did what he set out to do, to the point where he evidently found it safe to declare “It is finished”.

I do believe that God is able to incarnate from time to time, and that if Jesus was one instance of that, he wasn’t necessarily the first -- or only -- incarnation. I’m persuaded that Lord Krishna was another, prior incarnation. I could be wrong, but there are things Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita that agree with things found in the bible, so it could very well be the same God influencing each of the texts to some degree.

and what exactly would you say "moved you through" that doorway?

I’m not sure it was any single thing that did it. It was more of a progression. The aforementioned turbulence I had gone through with regards to scriptural contradictions definitely played a role, combined with the apparent confusion within Christianity in general on even the most critical points. Involvement in another forum -- a Christian one -- helped make that more obvious to me. And that’s fine -- we’re all human, and aren’t going to agree on everything across the board. Such diversity makes things more interesting and colorful. It also relieves one of the concern that a wrong belief is going to doom folks eternally; I’m convinced that an all-powerful, all-knowing God -- who is said by scripture to be Love itself -- would not have allowed room for such diversity if the punishment for “getting it wrong” were something as drastic as an eternity in a fiery pit (besides that, when I was still technically Christian, I had become a Christian Universalist, and over the span of four years got quite used to defending -- using Scripture -- the idea that God saves everyone ).

Maybe it was Jesus himself who gave me the final shove through the Door, saying “Get moving, girl, God’s waiting!”


-

 

[jasonwill2]

Do you know the definition of the word inclination?

yes, and those are all inclinations. though not all inclinations are harmful that are called "sin"

What did you need him to do(or is that too personal a question?)


So what are some characteristics of this Satan?

I needed him to help me... reconnect and stuff i was trying to get fellowship back as well as many other things.

Characteristics of Ha-Satan? life incarnate... hand of creation, blade of destruction, propagator of progression, vessel and mirror, that which extends within and extends without... manifestation of god. he is human nature.. he is my nature, he is the flesh... he is spirit... he is all there is and ever will be... the very creation itself. he is an energy and a thing of which I draw my power from inside myself from divine little sparks of autonomy, making me a distinct entity from him and the universe, yet at the same time that autonomy being anchored into my connection with him...

 

[-Peacemaker-]

thank you for that sentiment.

why would god present this to me...?
i was faithful to his commands i thought i meant more to him then the lilies of the field

I don't know why he allowed this but I do know that the Christian life is filled with tribulations. The only promise God makes is that he'll come along side of us during those times.

Psalm 71:20 Though you have made me see troubles, many and bitter, you will restore my life again; from the depths of the earth you will again bring me up.

Psalm 55:22 - Cast Thy Burden Upon The LORD, And He Shall
Sustain Thee.

 

[Shermana]

Shermana,
in all seriousness, it's not vs 26 that worried me it was this:

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

from my POV then, the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of god...

the reality of this is i suppressed my truth.

You're leaving out the critical part: "Who suppress the truth by their wickedness".

IMO, that's referring to all them church leaders and such who do their best to hide and distort the facts and scholarship pertaining to what Christianity originally was and what Christ actually taught, making up their own doctrines and interpretations that go completely against what it actually says.

Now is there ANY religion that doesn't involve a judgment on those who do bad things?

 

[Vadergirl123]

And there's nothing about the man having to submit to the woman, so therefore the woman is less than man. If you read the Bible literally, then women aren't allowed to have power of any man, but the other way around is ok.

The women wasn't less. And what about the women who were queens they would've had power over male servants.

That doesn't explain what is wrong about it. What reason would God have for banning love?

God's not banning love in itself. He believes homosexuality is a wrong type of love.

I don't have a chance to do so, because I cannot bring myself to believe in Him.

You have a chance, but you've chosen not to believe anymore

What about Muslims? They already believe that Jesus was a great prophet, but they don't believe that he was the son of God. Is it very likely that they will convert to Christianity if they're brought up to believe that Jesus was just a prophet?

Agian they'll have a chance to hear the truth. However it's their decision if they want to accept it.

What if a person doesn't sin, and still doesn't believe in God? Would this person go to hell?

Nope, they'd have no reason to

Let's just see if we're on the same page here. I believe that we shouldn't torture people. I believe that torture is immoral. I believe that torture for all eternity is worse than not believing in God. Do you agree with any of these?

I believe torturing someone without any reason, for eternity, is wrong yes.

If I could save over two billion people's lives by doing so, then yes, I would and I believe that most people would trade one person they loved for the lives of billions of people.

No some people wouldn't. Would you want your son to have a more peaceful death though, or would you allow him to be crucified. Do you have a son?

I wouldn't punish people who never met me for all eternity for not believing that I existed, though. If I can forgive "sinners" who don't believe I exist, why cannot God?

God's not sending people to hell because they don't believe in him.

It is not proportionate to the crime committed.

And you know what the properly proportioned crime is for sin.

Hell is like capital punishment for stealing a stick of chewing gum. I have nothing against the interpretation of hell that is just being dead, because that's what I believe happens after death, so it wouldn't matter. But I don't think I deserve to be tortured for all eternity, where a billion years of torture is just the start, because I don't believe in a God that has done nothing to prove to me that He exists.

A person won't go to hell because they don't believe in God. They go because they sin.

From the context in the words of Jesus, I believe that hell should be interpreted metaphorically, and not literally.

You can believe whatever you want about hell, but it seems your only reaosn for not beleiveing it's literal is because you don't like the idea of eternal punishment. That's what I mean when I say people interpret theBible to say what they want it too. You don't feel comfortable knowing there's eternal torture so you chose to beleive in a metaphorical representation. Is that fair for me to say?

 

[mycorrhiza]

Now is there ANY religion that doesn't involve a judgment on those who do bad things?

Several newer religions don't involve judgement.

 

[waitasec]

Haha oh yeah(I feel really dumb right now) and technically I did answer your question, but you just don't like the answer.

with all due respect, isn't that a judgement call on your part?
and to be clear, your answer wasn't sufficient enough for me to buy into it.

Yes there is, and yes you'd be heartbroken and sad for them, but you'd also have God in heaven with you. I can't really imagine what heaven will be like. Honestly when I was younger I thought it sounded like a boring place to go. I mean I figured everyone would be dressed in choir robes singing(and I'm not a singer) However God's become so real to me and there's something very awesome about seeing the creator of the universe and getting to talk to him, getting to be with Jesus for eternity. I'm looking forward to it. So even if my relatives/friends don't chose him, I'm going to still feel terrible(and I'll probably wish I could've done something different) but it's their choice. I can't change that.

like i said before there is a big disconnect here...
here's another thing...
when you go somewhere new or fun or exciting, would you enjoy it by your self or would you rather share it with those that mean something special to you? so now put yourself in heaven....

Again I do understand. However we're not God.

no we're not and to pretend, for lack of a better word, to even consider we can know god is frivolous and sometimes dangerous.

 

[waitasec]

You're leaving out the critical part: "Who suppress the truth by their wickedness".

IMO, that's referring to all them church leaders and such who do their best to hide and distort the facts and scholarship pertaining to what Christianity originally was and what Christ actually taught, making up their own doctrines and interpretations that go completely against what it actually says.

Now is there ANY religion that doesn't involve a judgment on those who do bad things?

you know i can see exactly where i went wrong in hindsight...that i was being wicked to myself by suppressing my inclination with fear and shame

 

[Shermana]

you know i can see exactly where i went wrong in hindsight...that i was being wicked to myself by suppressing my inclination with fear and shame

Maybe this might encourage you to give it another shot but without all the misinterpretations and the social pressure from the sheep who eat up said misinterpretations?

 

[mycorrhiza]

The women wasn't less. And what about the women who were queens they would've had power over male servants.

According to the Bible, being a woman AND having authority over men isn't allowed (1 Timothy 2:12).

God's not banning love in itself. He believes homosexuality is a wrong type of love.

He is still banning love. What is wrong with it? Who does it harm?

You have a chance, but you've chosen not to believe anymore

You cannot choose what to believe, just as little as you can decide what food you like. I can't decide to suddenly love eating raw onions.

Agian they'll have a chance to hear the truth. However it's their decision if they want to accept it.

But isn't it unfair if people who are born in the wrong country are less likely to be Christians?

Nope, they'd have no reason to

So what would happen to them?

I believe torturing someone without any reason, for eternity, is wrong yes.

What do you count as a valid reason for eternal torture?

No some people wouldn't. Would you want your son to have a more peaceful death though, or would you allow him to be crucified. Do you have a son?

I don't have a son, but the survival of 2 billion people is more important than the survival of one person. I'd let myself be tortured and killed if it save lots of people too. Both scenarios are very unlikely, though. The point of God is that God didn't need to sacrifice his son, he could just have forgiven the sins of people anyway. He did it to appease himself.

God's not sending people to hell because they don't believe in him.
And you know what the properly proportioned crime is for sin.
A person won't go to hell because they don't believe in God. They go because they sin.

There's a wide range of sins. Does committing a single one lead to hell if you don't accept Jesus? I cannot see any sin that would make anyone worthy of eternal torture.

You can believe whatever you want about hell, but it seems your only reaosn for not beleiveing it's literal is because you don't like the idea of eternal punishment. That's what I mean when I say people interpret theBible to say what they want it too. You don't feel comfortable knowing there's eternal torture so you chose to beleive in a metaphorical representation. Is that fair for me to say?

I believe that it is metaphorical for three reasons:

1. Eternal torture doesn't fit with a loving God. You would never sentence anyone you loved to eternal torture.
2. There is no hell in Judaism and not a single mentioning of a fiery torture pit in the OT.
3. Jesus used the words gehenna and sheol, one being a garbage dump and the other being the grave. So for us to have a fiery hell, it would have to be gehenna, but since it's fires are long gone, this cannot be literal either. So the interpretation of hell as a place of eternal torture is unbiblical and has it's root in old pagan beliefs.

Even if I thought that a literal interpretation was valid, it wouldn't make me feel unconfortable, as I don't believe that the Bible is true.

 

[waitasec]

Maybe this might encourage you to give it another shot but without all the misinterpretations and the social pressure from the sheep who eat up said misinterpretations?

give what another shot?

 

[Shermana]

give what another shot?

"Christianity". Minus the unscholarly portions.

 

[Nakosis]

"Christianity". Minus the unscholarly portions.

So one must be scholarly to arrive at the correct interpretation? Too bad for all them folks lacking the resources to get themselves properly educated.

They remain at the mercy false interpretations through no fault of their own. Seems a little unfair.

 

[waitasec]

"Christianity". Minus the unscholarly portions.

oh i see...

well that wasn't the only reason why i dismissed christianity...
however i do see it in a different light now that i'm a little older and wiser and thanks to the discourses i'm a part of with people like yourself on RF....

 

[waitasec]

So one must be scholarly to arrive at the correct interpretation? Too bad for all them folks lacking the resources to get themselves properly educated.

They remain at the mercy false interpretations through no fault of their own. Seems a little unfair.

you bring something interesting up...
when one goes to church, are they not listening to a scholar and considering the scholars words?

 

[Shermana]

So one must be scholarly to arrive at the correct interpretation? Too bad for all them folks lacking the resources to get themselves properly educated.

They remain at the mercy false interpretations through no fault of their own. Seems a little unfair

I ain't exactly rich. I got the internet. That's all I need to look up the basics and get the general gist of things. That itself is a whole thread topic. What resources do they need? Wikipedia often does a fine job on sourcing at least.

Why would anyone believe in "Christianity" in the first place if they weren't looking it up to see what it's about? Peer pressure? Family tradition?

I don't see what your contention even has to do with my point. So what if people don't have access to the scholarly journals, they can at least find out basic things like that the KJV is not necessarily all correct. Heck, even the NIV has ,with all its own faults and fraudulent translations of key verses which they deliberately change to suit their doctrine, a reasoning for their claims. You can call up a Messianic Jewish synagogue even and ask them why they believe what they do.

How many of these "Christians" even know why Jesus was considered Christ to begin with?

Is the reasoning "Because they were born into it" an honest excuse?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Now is there ANY religion that doesn't involve a judgment on those who do bad things?

Deism

 

[Jacksnyte]

you bring something interesting up...
when one goes to church, are they not listening to a scholar and considering the scholars words?

Nope, considering the academic standards of your average seminary! Most preachers of the more evangelical persuasion aren't exactly the best-read individuals, and I definitely wouldn't consider them scholars!

 

[waitasec]

Nope, considering the academic standards of your average seminary! Most preachers of the more evangelical persuasion aren't exactly the best-read individuals, and I definitely wouldn't consider them scholars!

had i only known then what i know now