Ex Christians

[Shermana]

"It is better to enter into life with one hand than to enter the fire with two".

I'd like to know what Forever faithful's response to Zeceriah 14 is where it says all the gentiles will have to celebrate the Festival of booths or be struck with plague and drought in the end days.

Also, according to Socrates Scholasticus, Christians were worshiping with Jews on Sabbath (not in Rome and Alexandria but everywhere else) up until the 5th century until the Romans stamped it out. I can imagine why things like this don't get taught too much.

 

[jasonwill2]

I really do appreciate you sharing. I really can't imagine too many circumstances in which a Christian like me would get to hear from a genuine Satanist about his spiritual experiences. God bless the internet. Let me ask you this, you say he let's you know that he cares, even if it's in really subtle ways. Would you still worship Satan if you believed that he didn't care about you? Because what I hear you telling me is that you have a personal relationship with the guy. It sounds to me that you find fulfillment out of that aspect

I mean that he cares for me in the way one cares for a painting they made; I am one brush stroke, even if he doesn't care for me personally, and he may not, he still cares for life in general. It really wouldn't change much.

Also about Satanists: don't take my views as representative, we are insanely diverse and eclectic, a lot of us are even atheists. These are my personal views and do not really reflect the entire picture of Satanism.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I mean that he cares for me in the way one cares for a painting they made; I am one brush stroke, even if he doesn't care for me personally, and he may not, he still cares for life in general. It really wouldn't change much.

Also about Satanists: don't take my views as representative, we are insanely diverse and eclectic, a lot of us are even atheists. These are my personal views and do not really reflect the entire picture of Satanism.

So you believe that it is Satan that made the universe? In your book does that in effect make him "God"? And what of Yahweh? Does he exist to you in some form, perhaps in the role of the "bad guy"?

 

[jasonwill2]

So you believe that it is Satan that made the universe? In your book does that in effect make him "God"? And what of Yahweh? Does he exist to you in some form, perhaps in the role of the "bad guy"?

Satan more than made the Universe, he IS the Universe, and he is in me and in everything. Yahweh is completely absent from my paradigm, though I also admit he probably exists, just as thousands of gods probably exist. I do not see him special in anyway.

 

[Alceste]

Who says it's a she as opposed to an it, and why must they specifically plan for me or be human centric? God sees all life more or less the same... and considering how there is probably thousands if not millions of planets with life, humans just make up part of all intelligent life that can process concepts like we do.

But to that extent, I agree with the rest of the statement. Also Satan wouldn't be happy if i wasnt living for myself and loved ones as well, he isnt the christian god after all.

Humans say whether their "god" is a he or a she, and whether or not S/he is anthropocentric. It's up to us whether or not to believe their claims. My own personal "god" would not be pleased if I accepted any proposition without proof.

 

[mycorrhiza]

Yes it does say he doesn't want the women to "usurp authority over the man." However you also have to look at teh context of the verses. Paul's talking about church order.

It still means that women are less than men, as they're not allowed authority.

Two people can still love each other in an unsexual way. God wants it to be between a man and a woman. As to the harm I don't know(I could research homosexuality I guess), but I have no problem believing God knows what's best.

Why would God be opposed to gay sex? There is absolutely no harm if it's between consenting adults.

What? People can too chose what to beleive, we're not born with a belief system. That's why people can convert to new beliefs. If they couldn't chose what to beleive that wouldn't be possible.

We can be indoctrinated to believe in something, and we can also search for a belief, but we cannot say "I'm going to believe that my house is a flying unicorn" and suddenly believe it.

I really don't see how, again they'll be given the opportunity to chose to acept Christ.

But it'll be much more difficult for someone to change their faith than to be raised in the faith. I would consider it unfair.

Hmm I don't know, I probably wouldn't send someone to eternal torture, although I might do maybe a hundred years in an eternal jail or soemthing like that. Why ask me though? I'm not God. You should look to him for the answer(by reading the Bible)

Why should you be more forgiving and loving than God? I did read the Bible and there is no mention of eternal torture. In fact, it is said several times that God gives believers the gift of eternal life, which is given to no other, meaning that there can't be eternal torture for non-believers.

Oh okay so would you let your son be tortured though? Before Christ, God did forgive their sins when they offered sacrifices to the priests. However they had to constantly do this.

If it saved 2 billion persons, then yes. God decided that they had to do that. He only appeased himself, when he simply could have changed the way to forgiveness without having his son tortured.

According to God, yes a single sin does. You're also not God.

So if you steal a stick of chewing gum, you're going to hell unless you believe in Jesus?

I already explained how God's not just a loving God he's also just and the punishment for sin is eternity in hell.

Eternal torture isn't loving.

Interesting, why can't it be both?

What?

Yes exactly, and since you've decided that the idea of hell isn't a good one. You then decide that hell can't be real, so you try to find something in the Bible that'll show your right(or just dismiss it altogether). That's how the Bible is misinterpretted. People come in with their own preconceived ideas and try to "fit the Bible" to what they believe.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that there is a hell. Could you show me any passage that explicitly says that there is?

How do you know that you're not the one misinterpreting the Bible?

 

[helpmeplease]

Two people can still love each other in an unsexual way. God wants it to be between a man and a woman. As to the harm I don't know(I could research homosexuality I guess), but I have no problem believing God knows what's best.

Don't you understand that it is the manmade construct of god who WANTS sex between man and woman? As far as anyone knows, no-one has ever recorded "god's" words about anything. You can believe what you like, but to state it as a fact of what god wants is disingenuous.

 

[helpmeplease]

Yes exactly, and since you've decided that the idea of hell isn't a good one. You then decide that hell can't be real, so you try to find something in the Bible that'll show your right(or just dismiss it altogether). That's how the Bible is misinterpretted. People come in with their own preconceived ideas and try to "fit the Bible" to what they believe.

Sounds like the watchtower people?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

If you want somebody to forego any possibility of EVER being in a loving relationship with a person they are physically attracted to, for the whole of their life, you need a much better argument than "God says it's wrong". That argument is too easily countered with "Well, I guess you must be wrong about God". Game, set, match. Nothing else to discuss.

I'd argue that this type of thinking is at the core of why so many people who identify as homosexuals reject Jesus. They can't imagine the circumstances in which they could somehow be provided for. They think that God is going to condemn them to a lifetime of burning with a passion they can never satisfy. Is God really so small that satisfying such people is beyond his capabilities? Of course some will counter with "I gave Jesus a shot and he let me down." Really? He allowed you to suffer and you call that being let down. The Bible is filled with tales of God's most trusted servants often writhing in pain.

Job: lost everything he had including his children because God wanted to test him

Joseph: Spent years as a slave and did time in prison

Paul: His entire ministry was spent facing adversity

2 Corinthians 6: 3giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited, 4but in everything commending ourselves as servants of God, in much endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, 5in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger, 6in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love, 7in the word of truth, in the power of God; by the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left, 8by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; regarded as deceivers and yet true; 9as unknown yet well-known, as dying yet behold, we live; as punished yet not put to death, 10as sorrowful yet always rejoicing, as poor yet making many rich, as having nothing yet possessing all things.

Trust me, the list goes on and on. Again, Christians so often seem surprised when difficult circumstances befall them. BTW, in case you didn't know Joseph became second in command over all Egypt and God doubled Job's riches but they had to wait patiently for his deliverance. Paul even in his most difficult life was able to find contentment.

Phillipians 4:
10 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

2 Corinthians 12:

7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

I'd like to know how many people that bailed on God approached their suffering like Paul when he was being tormented by the messenger of Satan by saying "Lord let your grace be sufficient for me in my weakness."

 

[Alceste]

I'd argue that this type of thinking is at the core of why so many people who identify as homosexuals reject Jesus. They can't imagine the circumstances in which they could somehow be provided for. They think that God is going to condemn them to a lifetime of burning with a passion they can never satisfy. Is God really so small that satisfying such people is beyond his capabilities? Of course some will counter with "I gave Jesus a shot and he let me down." Really? He allowed you to suffer and you call that being let down. The Bible is filled with tales of God's most trusted servants often writhing in pain.

Job: lost everything he had including his children because God wanted to test him

Joseph: Spent years as a slave and did time in prison

Paul: His entire ministry was spent facing adversity

2 Corinthians 6: 3giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited, 4but in everything commending ourselves as servants of God, in much endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, 5in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger, 6in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love, 7in the word of truth, in the power of God; by the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left, 8by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; regarded as deceivers and yet true; 9as unknown yet well-known, as dying yet behold, we live; as punished yet not put to death, 10as sorrowful yet always rejoicing, as poor yet making many rich, as having nothing yet possessing all things.

Trust me, the list goes on and on. Again, Christians so often seem surprised when difficult circumstances befall them. BTW, in case you didn't know Joseph became second in command over all Egypt and God doubled Job's riches but they had to wait patiently for his deliverance. Paul even in his most difficult life was able to find contentment.

Phillipians 4:
10 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

2 Corinthians 12:

7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

It doesn't matter to me how many Bible verses you can find that glorify suffering. It would be foolish for anybody to choose to suffer needlessly. Would you starve yourself to death when a great, heaping pot of stew was within reach, just because somebody told you "God" doesn't want you to eat? If remaining in a community that considers ones most powerful and positive emotions (romantic love) shameful causes one to suffer, the only intelligent choice is to leave that community.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'd argue that this type of thinking is at the core of why so many people who identify as homosexuals reject Jesus. They can't imagine the circumstances in which they could somehow be provided for. They think that God is going to condemn them to a lifetime of burning with a passion they can never satisfy. Is God really so small that satisfying such people is beyond his capabilities? Of course some will counter with "I gave Jesus a shot and he let me down." Really? He allowed you to suffer and you call that being let down. The Bible is filled with tales of God's most trusted servants often writhing in pain.

Job: lost everything he had including his children because God wanted to test him

Joseph: Spent years as a slave and did time in prison

Paul: His entire ministry was spent facing adversity

2 Corinthians 6: 3giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited, 4but in everything commending ourselves as servants of God, in much endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, 5in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger, 6in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love, 7in the word of truth, in the power of God; by the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left, 8by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; regarded as deceivers and yet true; 9as unknown yet well-known, as dying yet behold, we live; as punished yet not put to death, 10as sorrowful yet always rejoicing, as poor yet making many rich, as having nothing yet possessing all things.

Trust me, the list goes on and on. Again, Christians so often seem surprised when difficult circumstances befall them. BTW, in case you didn't know Joseph became second in command over all Egypt and God doubled Job's riches but they had to wait patiently for his deliverance. Paul even in his most difficult life was able to find contentment.

Phillipians 4:
10 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

2 Corinthians 12:

7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

I'd like to know how many people that bailed on God approached their suffering like Paul when he was being tormented by the messenger of Satan by saying "Lord let your grace be sufficient for me in my weakness."

I didn't "bail" on God. I reevaluated my beliefs and consequently redefined them.

And I approached my faith the way you mentioned for about 20 years or so.

 

[Alceste]

I didn't "bail" on God. I reevaluated my beliefs and consequently redefined them.

And I approached my faith the way you mentioned for about 20 years or so.

It seems to be a serious weakness of Christianity that it asks people to believe in a "benevolent God" who tortures people for circumstances and characteristics beyond their ability to control. The only way to resolve the cognitive dissonance that must cause seems to be to realize it's all a bunch of hooey.

 

[Vadergirl123]

so you agree with stoning a girl who doesn't bleed on her wedding night, even for that time much less today of course?

Again what's the passage for this?

 

[Vadergirl123]

tolerance.

The Bible does talk about tolerance, we're to respect others, and treat them with love. However we don't have to agree with what they believe

 

[Alceste]

Again what's the passage for this?

Haven't you read the Bible? I would think that would be a high priority if it is the only source of morality you recognize.

Deuteronomy 22:13-21

13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Based on these responses, it appears that you, as well as the rest of us, truly do have an ability and a reason to be moral without the Bible telling us to.

I reworded what I said and changed it to, "without God/the Bible we have no definite sense of morality. I can claim I know what's right/wrong, but you can claim you also know what's right/wrong. Who's to say which one of us is right.

 

[Vadergirl123]

1) God actually did say that, which means he is not omnibenevolent.

I never said God was all benevolent, and I've also said I don't know why God dealt with the situation that way.

 

[Vadergirl123]

why, what happened? did you at one point believe he didn't exist?

I got angry that people around me who weren't living for God seemed happier than I was, and I was trying to be a good person. It was frustrating so I decided I didn't want any thing more to do with a God who wuoldn't even reward me for "living for him," then I started wondering how could I possibly know the Bible was even true since there's a bunch of religious books out there. However I didn't really ever reach the point where I thought he didn't exist. I've always thought a God/gods exist.

by what criteria do you determine they REALLY were christians in the 1st place?

The Bible

 

[Alceste]

I reworded what I said and changed it to, "without God/the Bible we have no definite sense of morality. I can claim I know what's right/wrong, but you can claim you also know what's right/wrong. Who's to say which one of us is right.

There's all kinds of stupidity and nonsense in the Bible though. "Stone your daughter to death if she's not a virgin on her wedding night" is only one of many examples of the Bible's twisted, unconscionable, barbaric version of "morality".

I can use the Bible to tell you all kinds of stupid stuff is sinful, and that all kinds of other stupid stuff is meant to be virtuous. Eating bacon is immoral. Tearing your clothes and yelling "UNCLEAN" if you have a skin disease is moral. Eating shellfish is immoral. Animal sacrifice is moral.

If you wouldn't mind, please read the whole of Deuteronomy. Then come back and let us know whether you still think the Bible is a good way to judge right from wrong.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Haven't you read the Bible? I would think that would be a high priority if it is the only source of morality you recognize.

Yes I've read this passage, and the woman was stoned for, "being promiscous in her father's house"(vs 21) she's not stoned because she wouldn't bleed on her wedding night.