Ex Christians

[Vadergirl123]

I can use the Bible to tell you all kinds of stupid stuff is sinful, and that all kinds of other stupid stuff is meant to be virtuous. Eating bacon is immoral. Tearing your clothes and yelling "UNCLEAN" if you have a skin disease is moral. Eating shellfish is immoral. Animal sacrifice is moral.

These laws are all adressed to the Israelites. We're no longer under those laws.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes I've read this passage, and the woman was stoned for, "being promiscous in her father's house"(vs 21) she's not stoned because she wouldn't bleed on her wedding night.

 

[Alceste]

Yes I've read this passage, and the woman was stoned for, "being promiscous in her father's house"(vs 21) she's not stoned because she wouldn't bleed on her wedding night.

The meaning is very plain: If a man claims his bride was not a virgin on her wedding night, her family must produce PROOF she was in fact a virgin, whereupon they'll be paid in silver for the slander. Otherwise, the bride is to be stoned to death. Do you disagree with this interpretation? I'm talking about the whole verse I posted, context and all, not just the dislocated fragment you picked up on.

The whole law completely hinges on whether or not a "token" of the bride's virginity can be produced - that alone decides whether the bride lives or dies. What do you think is meant by that, if not a bloody sheet?

 

[Alceste]

These laws are all adressed to the Israelites. We're no longer under those laws.

So homosexuality is not a sin?

 

[Vadergirl123]

I am curious as to why you've chosen to believe you're not as smart as the normal, fallible human men who wrote the books of the Bible,

The men were inspired by God, and I'm not as smart as God.

Hypothetically speaking, if there were any such thing as a God who is interested in your life, behavior and beliefs, couldn't that God communicate Her wishes to you directly?

God is a "He" and he does communicate to me through his words.

 

[Vadergirl123]

I am afraid there is no way I could ever mistrust my own reading comprehension and my ability to reason to this extent. When I read the Bible, its meaning was completely obvious to me. I didn't have to struggle to make sense of anything. It was equally obvious to me that it was written by normal human men.

Do you believe the men would've included the story of Esther or Ruth? Surely men in ancient times would have seen those stories as uneccesary.

That's pretty impressive, but it's nothing an ordinary human man couldn't do, and nothing ordinary human men and women don't still spend every day of their lives trying to accomplish.

Ordinary human beings don't go out and die on a cross for a bunch of people who they know will despise them.

 

[Vadergirl123]

You should live how you want to, and for yourself. I do.

No thanks

 

[Alceste]

The men were inspired by God, and I'm not as smart as God.


God is a "He" and he does communicate to me through his words.

So you believe other people can be inspired by God, but you can't. You have to rely on other people to communicate God's wishes to you? Is that so?

If you don't mind, I'll continue to use the feminine pronoun for God. I don't see what difference the gender of a hypothetical omnipotent being makes, and when I think "creator" I think of a great womb springing forth life rather than a great penis spewing... well, you get the picture.

 

[Alceste]

Do you believe the men would've included the story of Esther or Ruth? Surely men in ancient times would have seen those stories as uneccesary.

Just about everything in the Bible is "unnecessary". Obviously "necessity" wasn't a major concern for the people who cobbled it together. Why include five gospels instead of only one, for example? Why have a whole chapter of sex poetry? What's the point of all those interminable "begats", or the endless instructions on animal sacrifice?

Ordinary human beings don't go out and die on a cross for a bunch of people who they know will despise them.

Who's to say Jesus got himself crucified on purpose for the benefit of mankind? Seems to me (having read the Bible, remember) that he was captured and crucified by the authorities of the time, for crimes that certainly did not include your sins. He didn't seem very happy about it, if I recall correctly.

 

[Vadergirl123]

It still means that women are less than men, as they're not allowed authority.

Women did have authority. They just weren't in charge of churches and they're to submit to their husbands in marriage. Again do your eally not think a woman was in charge of her servant?

Why would God be opposed to gay sex? There is absolutely no harm if it's between consenting adults.

I've already said that he wants marriage to be between a man and a woman. not two men or two women. Who says there's no harm?

We can be indoctrinated to believe in something, and we can also search for a belief, but we cannot say "I'm going to believe that my house is a flying unicorn" and suddenly believe it.

You were once a christain right? Are you teling me that deep down you still really do believe all the christain principles, but were just indoctrinated to suddenly not beleive them? Did you not make a choice to no longer believe in christianity?

But it'll be much more difficult for someone to change their faith than to be raised in the faith. I would consider it unfair.

It will be more difficult for them, but why's that unfair?

Why should you be more forgiving and loving than God?

(Without God)I wouldn't die for people who would end up hating me, nor woudl I forgive the people who tortured me in the first place.

I did read the Bible and there is no mention of eternal torture. In fact, it is said several times that God gives believers the gift of eternal life, which is given to no other, meaning that there can't be eternal torture for non-believers.

Read Psa. 9:17 and eternal life is like heaven. Hell is thought of as eternal death from God. The Bible doesn't claim that non-believers will go to heaven. And why woudl they want to go anyway?

If it saved 2 billion persons, then yes.

So it wouldn't bother you at all if some 4billion hated your son and claimed your son's death didn't do anything or if some of the people rejected the fact that your son died? You'd still care about those people?

God decided that they had to do that. He only appeased himself, when he simply could have changed the way to forgiveness without having his son tortured.

Yes he could've done it another way, but withthe way he did it he showed how much he loved us.

So if you steal a stick of chewing gum, you're going to hell unless you believe in Jesus?

Yes, why do you not believe stealing is a good enough sin?

Eternal torture isn't loving.

I never said it was, but people have the choice.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that there is a hell. Could you show me any passage that explicitly says that there is?

I already said Psa. 9:17. I can look up some others if you'd like

How do you know that you're not the one misinterpreting the Bible?

I guess I could be, but I have no reason to believe I am. What makes you think I'm misinterpreting it?

 

[Vadergirl123]

So you believe other people can be inspired by God, but you can't. You have to rely on other people to communicate God's wishes to you? Is that so?

I believe the men were inspired by God and that we now have his words, and I don't believe God will appear to me and tell me to write a book about him.

If you don't mind, I'll continue to use the feminine pronoun for God.

God isn't a woman, and when you use a feminine pronoun we're no longer talking about the same God. However as long as you're not talking about the same God I am then I don't care which pronoun you use.

 

[Vadergirl123]

So homosexuality is not a sin?

Yes it is, whenever God talks about marriage it's between a man and a woman, and there's verses in the N.T that talk about it being a bad thing. Romans 1:26-27 is one.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Who's to say Jesus got himself crucified on purpose for the benefit of mankind? Seems to me (having read the Bible, remember) that he was captured and crucified by the authorities of the time, for crimes that certainly did not include your sins. He didn't seem very happy about it, if I recall correctly.

What? You think he accidently got crucified???? Why??? where from the Bible do you get that idea?

 

[InChrist]

Just about everything in the Bible is "unnecessary". Obviously "necessity" wasn't a major concern for the people who cobbled it together. Why include five gospels instead of only one, for example? Why have a whole chapter of sex poetry? What's the point of all those interminable "begats", or the endless instructions on animal sacrifice?

If the things recorded in the Bible were unnecessary, they wouldn't be there, but they are so God thought such information was necessary. There are four gospels, not five and the reason for this is to give more than one eyewitness account and testimony (as in a courtroom) of Jesus' life and the things He said and did while on earth. The Song of Solomon is included to show the joys of love between a husband and wife. The genealogy is important to show family bloodlines, especially in reference to the Messiah, Jesus. All the details related to the animal sacrifices were given because God was very precise in the method required for the payment of sin in the nation of Israel as these animal sacrifices were a foreshadow which pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ

Who's to say Jesus got himself crucified on purpose for the benefit of mankind? Seems to me (having read the Bible, remember) that he was captured and crucified by the authorities of the time, for crimes that certainly did not include your sins. He didn't seem very happy about it, if I recall correctly.

[/quote]

Jesus said He came to lay down His life. Attempts were made to capture Him, but He always avoided these because the time was not right, but when it was He let Himself be caught and went to the cross like a lamb to the slaughter with no resistance because He was the Lamb of God whose purpose was to be slain for the sins of the world.

 

[fantome profane]

Yes I've read this passage, and the woman was stoned for, "being promiscous in her father's house"(vs 21) she's not stoned because she wouldn't bleed on her wedding night.

This is your defense of Biblical morality? Don't you find this disgusting? If you were to read a story in tomorrows newspaper about a newlywed woman who was stoned to death because she was "promiscuous in her father's house", would you approve?

 

[Alceste]

What? You think he accidently got crucified???? Why??? where from the Bible do you get that idea?

I think he was arrested and executed, just like it says in the Bible. I don't see any reason to believe he did that on purpose. Being arrested and executed is a passive act. IOW, somebody else does the arresting and executing. You don't do it to yourself.

 

[Alceste]

I believe the men were inspired by God and that we now have his words, and I don't believe God will appear to me and tell me to write a book about him.

Why not? Doesn't the belief that God makes people write books require the accompanying belief that YOU could be one of those people, hypothetically speaking? From a strictly logical perspective, I mean? The people who wrote the gospels were human, you are a human. If you believe God speaks through humans, it's only logical to also believe God could speak through you. If not, you should at least be able to provide a reason why not.

God isn't a woman, and when you use a feminine pronoun we're no longer talking about the same God. However as long as you're not talking about the same God I am then I don't care which pronoun you use.

Surely you don't believe there is more than one God?

 

[Me Myself]

God isn't a woman

Is he a male? Because if he was he would have a penis.

for what does he use it? had anything to do with Mary´s conception?

 

[Alceste]

If the things recorded in the Bible were unnecessary, they wouldn't be there, but they are so God thought such information was necessary. There are four gospels, not five and the reason for this is to give more than one eyewitness account and testimony (as in a courtroom) of Jesus' life and the things He said and did while on earth.

The Song of Solomon is included to show the joys of love between a husband and wife. The genealogy is important to show family bloodlines, especially in reference to the Messiah, Jesus. All the details related to the animal sacrifices were given because God was very precise in the method required for the payment of sin in the nation of Israel as these animal sacrifices were a foreshadow which pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ

But the Gospels were written hundreds of years after his death, and they contradict one another. How is that useful or necessary? And why would God decide that the laws of the Israelites should be included at all? ALL ancient nations had laws, but God decided all the trivial minutae of the customs of one single tribe had to be included in meticulous detail? No, sorry, not at all necessary, if this is a GOD we are talking about, rather than normal human members of the tribe in question.

Jesus said He came to lay down His life. Attempts were made to capture Him, but He always avoided these because the time was not right, but when it was He let Himself be caught and went to the cross like a lamb to the slaughter with no resistance because He was the Lamb of God whose purpose was to be slain for the sins of the world.

I'm not interested in any of these claims. I'm only interested in why people choose to believe them.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Is he a male? Because if he was he would have a penis.

Yes he's male, But God's not a human being.