Ex Christians

[Alceste]

I'm saying that an "inclination" is by definition not a "deed". Inclinations can lead people to take actions. I may have an inclination ot sleep with a married woman and I can either act on that feeling or I can deny myself. When people who call themselves homosexuals say "God condemns me for being who I am" what I here the saying is that they're mad because God didn't allow them to do what they felt like doing. I just don't have a ton of sympathy for such cries because every Christian is put in a situation where we have to deny ourselves inclinations we would say are from the sinful nature. For some reason, people that call themselves homosexuals seem to feel that they have a more compelling reason than the rest of us to engage some of those inclinations

If you want somebody to forego any possibility of EVER being in a loving relationship with a person they are physically attracted to, for the whole of their life, you need a much better argument than "God says it's wrong". That argument is too easily countered with "Well, I guess you must be wrong about God". Game, set, match. Nothing else to discuss.

 

[Tarheeler]

The conditions to carry out execution in the Torah were so great that it was virtually impossible.

The Talmud said that a jewish court that executed someone in 70 years was considered an evil court.

Mike, you're going to find that what is typically discussed is the Christian point-of-view. The Jewish way of looking at things, particularly through the Talmud and rabbinic literature, isn't seen as being nearly as exicting.

 

[Caladan]

If you want somebody to forego any possibility of EVER being in a loving relationship with a person they are physically attracted to, for the whole of their life, you need a much better argument than "God says it's wrong". That argument is too easily countered with "Well, I guess you must be wrong about God". Game, set, match. Nothing else to discuss.

What I found amazing, is that the prospect of never fulfilling your love, or physical needs, a warm touch, a kiss, or even a caress is compared to other more minor inclinations of people who already have a Biblically 'legit' love and relationship.
Welcome to sociology class... for first grade.

 

[Alceste]

Are you asking me why I think I'm not as smart as God?

I am curious as to why you've chosen to believe you're not as smart as the normal, fallible human men who wrote the books of the Bible, or the priests who cobbled it together. I know for a fact I am smarter than they are - or at the very least better educated. I know the world is not flat. I know it is billions of years old. I know what causes floods, drought, fires, storms, etc. I know that rape and slavery are wrong.

Hypothetically speaking, if there were any such thing as a God who is interested in your life, behavior and beliefs, couldn't that God communicate Her wishes to you directly? Relying on a confusing, self-contradictory heap of ancient folk tales related by a barbaric culture seems kind of - inefficient.

 

[Alceste]

What I found amazing, is that the prospect of never fulfilling your love, or physical needs, a warm touch, a kiss, or even a caress is compared to other more minor inclinations of people who already have a Biblically 'legit' love and relationship.
Welcome to sociology class... for first grade.

Yeah, the crudeness of that particular moral construct is really disturbing to me. Have these people never been in love? When we fall in love we KNOW it's right, and good, and moral, and decent, and all that jazz. We feel it in the marrow of our bones. Imagine the epic battle that must ensue between the head and the heart in those who've intellectually surrendered to Christian dogma, but whose every living cell commands them to go to the object of their love, insisting it's right and good.

Unless you get off on guilt, shame and self loathing (some fundamentalists seem to), there's only one way out of that conundrum, and that's the EXIT door of the church.

 

[Alceste]

I totally see where you're comming form. I've sometimes found myself reading passages and then saying why didn't God do it this way instead. It would have been better and it would have made him look like a more fair God. The problem when we do that though is that we're trying to "be God" we're saying we know what's best and we know how it should be done. There's things about God we can't understand and we just have to accept that he knows best even if it doesn't make sense to us. I know it's hard to do though.

I am afraid there is no way I could ever mistrust my own reading comprehension and my ability to reason to this extent. When I read the Bible, its meaning was completely obvious to me. I didn't have to struggle to make sense of anything. It was equally obvious to me that it was written by normal human men. Who rapes women? Men do. Who might argue that a pay-off to a woman's father and a marriage would be a reasonable remedy for the crime of rape? Men would. Who trades in slaves? Men do. Who might cobble together a code of practice for slave ownership and slave trading? Men would.

I don't see any evidence of an omniscient, benevolent intelligence in that book. Only men justifying the terrible things men do, then Jesus tromping through the works, trying to establish a foothold for socialism and a more compassionate society. That's pretty impressive, but it's nothing an ordinary human man couldn't do, and nothing ordinary human men and women don't still spend every day of their lives trying to accomplish.

 

[Alceste]

If you take away the Bible you'll take away how God tells us to live, so then why shoudln't I live how I want to and for myself?

You should live how you want to, and for yourself. I do.

 

[jasonwill2]

You should live how you want to, and for yourself. I do.

Or for the glory of a god that praises you for doing just that (Ha-Satan in my case). So by living for yourself (and your loved ones of course) you can also bring glory to God

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yeah, the crudeness of that particular moral construct is really disturbing to me. Have these people never been in love? When we fall in love we KNOW it's right, and good, and moral, and decent, and all that jazz. We feel it in the marrow of our bones. Imagine the epic battle that must ensue between the head and the heart in those who've intellectually surrendered to Christian dogma, but whose every living cell commands them to go to the object of their love, insisting it's right and good.

Unless you get off on guilt, shame and self loathing (some fundamentalists seem to), there's only one way out of that conundrum, and that's the EXIT door of the church.

Love? Bah! Love is for the puny girly-man! I punch love in the heart and put it in it's place under structure and discipline GRRR!!!

 

[jasonwill2]

Love? Bah! Love is for the puny girly-man! I punch love in the heart and put it in it's place under structure and discipline GRRR!!!

You would be either very scary or very good in bed depending on the person.

 

[Alceste]

Or for the glory of a god that praises you for doing just that (Ha-Satan in my case). So by living for yourself (and your loved ones of course) you can also bring glory to God

If you think there is such a thing as a God, by all means, live for the glory of God too, but, for love of God, don't forget to live for yourself, or sacrifice your own happiness to make your God happy.

If there is any such thing as a creator God, chances are She did not put you on this earth to be unhappy.

 

[Alceste]

Love? Bah! Love is for the puny girly-man! I punch love in the heart and put it in it's place under structure and discipline GRRR!!!

* swoon *

If your spankings are wrong I don't want to be right.

 

[jasonwill2]

If you think there is such a thing as a God, by all means, live for the glory of God too, but, for love of God, don't forget to live for yourself, or sacrifice your own happiness to make your God happy.

If there is any such thing as a creator God, chances are She did not put you on this earth to be unhappy.

Who says it's a she as opposed to an it, and why must they specifically plan for me or be human centric? God sees all life more or less the same... and considering how there is probably thousands if not millions of planets with life, humans just make up part of all intelligent life that can process concepts like we do.

But to that extent, I agree with the rest of the statement. Also Satan wouldn't be happy if i wasnt living for myself and loved ones as well, he isnt the christian god after all.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Satan is not the devil -.-

Also I will not forgive someone who in the next sentence justifies their actions, that's not an apology, that's arrogance and comes of as sarcastic.

I really wasn't meant to be sarcastic. And it wasn't wasn't a justification. It was an attempt to convey to get you to empathize with me. But I genuinely want to talk with people and I'm going to try to work on my demeenor

 

[crocusj]

Are you asking me why I think I'm not as smart as God?

No. I don't need to know why you think you are not as smart as your god. Clearly from your statements you believe that this god knows more than you and acts in ways that you do not always understand. I am asking you how you can recognise this concept without using your own innate morality. If your god does or does not do something that you find moraly questionable you are able to excuse the god's actions by way of a lack of human understanding of his real motives (fair enough if that's what you believe, I guess) but I don't understand how you, as an individual, can know that the action is morally questionable in the first place if all your morals come from this god. To recognise that you do not understand his actions you must be using your own morality. From where do these morals come from?

 

[jasonwill2]

I really wasn't meant to be sarcastic. And it wasn't wasn't a justification. It was an attempt to convey to get you to empathize with me. But I genuinely want to talk with people and I'm going to try to work on my demeenor

I have no empathy for you, just as I have no empathy for my past Christian self.

Also it would be nice if you responded to my two earlier posts which I felt would help answer a lot of the questions you asked, I want to know if they were sufficient.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I have no empathy for you, just as I have no empathy for my past Christian self.

Also it would be nice if you responded to my two earlier posts which I felt would help answer a lot of the questions you asked, I want to know if they were sufficient.

I did read them. They fall into the category of a personal testimony. I can't disagree or agree with them. I that's what you felt happened, what am I to say? That it didn't? Certainly not. What I thought was a little confusing was that you said that Satan's job is to get us to realize our potential, not provide for us but in another part you said that he acts as a guide where danger may lie so as to protect you.I did find the practical stuff interesting about how you felt that Satan helped you to get secondary education but again it seemed to conflict with the claim that he's not a provider. As you probably know, my Lord taught that he's no friend of mankind even if he pretends to me. You'll have to understand if my guard is up when it comes to Satan.

 

[jasonwill2]

I did read them. They fall into the category of a personal testimony. I can't disagree or agree with them. I that's what you felt happened, what am I to say? That it didn't? Certainly not. What I thought was a little confusing was that you said that Satan's job is to get us to realize our potential, not provide for us but in another part you said that he acts as a guide where danger may lie so as to protect you.I did find the practical stuff interesting about how you felt that Satan helped you to get secondary education but again it seemed to conflict with the claim that he's not a provider. As you probably know, my Lord taught that he's no friend of mankind even if he pretends to me. You'll have to understand if my guard is up when it comes to Satan.

He doesnt act as a guide, i keep telling you that. he nudges sometimes if i ask, but otherwise its up to me to find the path. he doesnt warn me of danger, at least not usually, as that robs me of the learning experience.

he's less personal to me than you realize... he's many things but he doesnt feel empathy for me in the typical sense... think a cold "tough love" kind of approach that still actually in subtle ways lets you know it cares. part of that is letting me do stupid things so i can learn from it

 

[-Peacemaker-]

He doesnt act as a guide, i keep telling you that. he nudges sometimes if i ask, but otherwise its up to me to find the path. he doesnt warn me of danger, at least not usually, as that robs me of the learning experience.

he's less personal to me than you realize... he's many things but he doesnt feel empathy for me in the typical sense... think a cold "tough love" kind of approach that still actually in subtle ways lets you know it cares. part of that is letting me do stupid things so i can learn from it

I really do appreciate you sharing. I really can't imagine too many circumstances in which a Christian like me would get to hear from a genuine Satanist about his spiritual experiences. God bless the internet. Let me ask you this, you say he let's you know that he cares, even if it's in really subtle ways. Would you still worship Satan if you believed that he didn't care about you? Because what I hear you telling me is that you have a personal relationship with the guy. It sounds to me that you find fulfillment out of that aspect

 

[Tbone]

The 3 days and 3 nights was just an expression for something done on one day, taking an entire day, and then ending on another.

Not so. Three days AND three nights means exactly what it says.(i.e. 72 hrs.)
That was the only sign Jesus gave to prove He was who He said He was.

It is evident in scripture that Jesus died on Friday, and rose on Sunday.

Another misunderstanding. Jesus was killed on Wed and burried just before sun down. Thursday was an annual Sabbath (High Day) the first day of unleavened bread.
Friday the women bought and prepared spices and then, the next day, they rested on the weekly Sabbath.

Heaven is just language for the presence of God, which is where the saints who have departed are.

No one that has died is anywhere but dead until they are resurrected.
The dead know nothing. They are just dead.

Something the Pharisees believed actually, we see very earlier on in Christian writing the developement of the concepts of hell long before the the fourth century.

The Pharisees said a lot of thing that were wrong and Jesus corrected them on many of those things.
We must believe God not the traditions of men.

Hell opposed to Heaven is the seperation from God, whatever that might be.

The wages of sin is DEATH, not some kind of eternal life away from God or anywhere else.

4.) Doing away with God's sabbaths and feasts.[/quote]
5.) God's way of life (i.e. His laws) being done away with.
Just to mention a few.[/quote]

Keeping Jewish holidays and purity laws were abandoned in the first century (Roman 14)

God says they are HIS Days, not the Jews or anyone elses, plus He commanded them to be oserved forever as a prepetual covenant.

Looks like you have some reading to do.