Ex Christians

[InChrist]

How does one 'fulfill' a law, exactly?

that's a catchy phrase but it really doesn't have any meaning.

Jesus lived a perfect, sinless human life fulfilling all the requirements of the law which no other human being has done.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Jesus lived a perfect, sinless human life fulfilling all the requirements of the law which no other human being has done.

That is not fulfilling a law; that's observing it. Obeying it. Laws don't need fulfilling, they need obeying.

If no human can possibly obey all the laws, why are we expected to? That's not rational of God to do.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So then I just follow whoever has the gun? Whoever has the gun is right? What if some new person kills you and they give me new rules to follow that go against your previous rules. I now follow them right?

You're really torturing this analogy. It's really very simple: is the person who has the gun the one who gets to rightfully determine the actions of a person who doesn't have a gun?

God created all of us, and he's perfect while we're sinful so yeah he can make whatever rules he wants. You don't have to follow them though.

So, God gets to decide everything - including what is right and wrong - and my decisions don't really matter. Again, please explain how this is different from one person putting a gun to your head and telling you what to do? "God has all the power and God is perfect so he is right to tell us what to do?" You know what, I would say that no perfect being would tell any other being what to do. By definition, a perfect being would not want or need anything from any other creature, so why would it ask anything? That makes no sense whatsoever. The God you describe is no better than a narcissistic tyrant. Who in their right mind would choose to follow the rules of something which says "do what I say because I'm perfect and if you don't do what I say I'll allow you to suffer for eternity"?

 

[Vadergirl123]

Unfortunately, the "murder" and "kill" argument has some limitations. The word for "kill" can in fact mean "murder" as well.

Okay, but it means murder in the context of Exodus 20. You're right the word ratsach doesn't mean murder. It's original meaning is to dash in pieces or to kill(especially to murder) however when it's used you see that it's refering to murder most of the time. I Kings 21:19, Hos 4:2, and Exodus 20:13. It refers to a killer when it's talking about someone who kills unintentionaly(Num. 35:27, Deut 4:42, and Deut. 5:17

 

[Vadergirl123]

You're really torturing this analogy. It's really very simple: is the person who has the gun the one who gets to rightfully determine the actions of a person who doesn't have a gun?

I know haha and I already answered that and said no I wouldn't have to obey you. However you didn't answer my question lets say I chose to follow you, and then another person with a gun overtook you and gave me instructions that conflicted with your previous commands. Would I then follow them instead? Again it seems that you're just saying whoever has the gun has the power, but if everyone has a gun then nobody really has any power.

So, God gets to decide everything - including what is right and wrong - and my decisions don't really matter

God gets to decide yes, but you don't have to obey him. You can make your own decisions about life.

Again, please explain how this is different from one person putting a gun to your head and telling you what to do?

Anyone can take a gun and point it to somebody's head(which according to yrou analogy then gives them the "power"), but there's only one God.

God has all the power and God is perfect so he is right to tell us what to do?"

Yep he has every right to make whatever rules he wants.

You know what, I would say that no perfect being would tell any other being what to do. By definition, a perfect being would not want or need anything from any other creature, so why would it ask anything? That makes no sense whatsoever.

How can you empathize with a perfect being? Or know what they want, you're just assuming. God wants us to be in a relationship with him, that's why he created us

The God you describe is no better than a narcissistic tyrant. Who in their right mind would choose to follow the rules of something which says "do what I say because I'm perfect and if you don't do what I say I'll allow you to suffer for eternity"?

God's not a "narcissistic tyrant" he knows what's best for us and we're a cursed fallen race, so we aren't perfect like he is. Also he gives us the choice to be with him forever, we don't have to be eternally separated from him.

 

[Nakosis]

It doesn't matter. G-D said

Deuteronomy

4:2. Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

12: 28. Keep and hearken to all these words that I command you, that it may benefit you and your children after you, forever, when you do what is good and proper in the eyes of the Lord, your God.

13:1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

Do you think that G-D was just joking when he said these things? :no:

Must have been since just about everyone thought they could, Judeans, Christians, Muslims. Seems no one took God serious on this.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I know haha and I already answered that and said no I wouldn't have to obey you. However you didn't answer my question lets say I chose to follow you, and then another person with a gun overtook you and gave me instructions that conflicted with your previous commands. Would I then follow them instead? Again it seems that you're just saying whoever has the gun has the power, but if everyone has a gun then nobody really has any power.

But that's completely irrelevant to the point I'm making.

God gets to decide yes, but you don't have to obey him. You can make your own decisions about life.

But do I get punished for making the "wrong" choices? For example, I am an atheist and think the concept of God is laughable - and that if God did exist, he would not only be unworthy of worship, but an evil, despotic monster. Will I go to hell, according to your theology, for choosing to believe this?

Anyone can take a gun and point it to somebody's head(which according to yrou analogy then gives them the "power"), but there's only one God.

In my analogy, there is only one person with one gun. It's exactly the same situation.

Yep he has every right to make whatever rules he wants.

Why?

How can you empathize with a perfect being? Or know what they want, you're just assuming. God wants us to be in a relationship with him, that's why he created us

So you tell me I can't empathize with a perfect being or know what he wants, then you claim to know what God wants. You've just contradicted yourself.

Also, why would a perfect being "want" anything? If God is perfect, he wouldn't want or need anything, much less would they need to create life just to have a "relationship" with it. God sounds pretty lonely and desperate to me.

God's not a "narcissistic tyrant" he knows what's best for us and we're a cursed fallen race, so we aren't perfect like he is. Also he gives us the choice to be with him forever, we don't have to be eternally separated from him.

That sounds like an abusive relationship. If God is fine with allowing people to suffer in hell for eternity, then God is not perfect. In fact, I would argue that such a God is beneath us and that we are infinitely morally superior to such a being. So, why believe in them, much less give them your loyalty?

 

[Nakosis]

I believe Jesus only had two commandments of his own: 1: Love God, 2: love your neighbour.

There is actually several.

Like...

7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'(John 3:7
KJV)

"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. " In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. (Mathew 5:14;16 NIV)

"But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one."(Matthew 5:34-37 KJV)

"And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:40-42 NIV)

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words." (Matthew 6:5-7 NIV)

Just to name a few.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Most Christians accept that Paul had the same authority as Jesus don't they?

I don't, I believe Paul was a man inspired by God.

 

[Vadergirl123]

But the distinction you make is so silly and childish. Half the English translations choose "kill" and the other half choose "murder".

Yes well they're ENGLISH translations. The Bible wasn't originally written in english. Also english words change meaning over time.

Seems to me like many of the most esteemed theologians of your religion don't share your personal conviction that killing each other is OK as far as Jesus Christ is concerned.

Murder isn't okay(I already showed you that was what God's saying), but killing isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't think the U.S. army is acting God.

 

[Nakosis]

I don't, I believe Paul was a man inspired by God.

I'd agree. I mean I think Paul saw himself as a church leader. But not a mouth piece for either God or Jesus.

Paul offered his opinion as he saw best to help the churches. Not a bad guy, but just a guy who had some opinions.

However the majority of Christians I talk to give Paul equal authority.

 

[Alceste]

Yes well they're ENGLISH translations. The Bible wasn't originally written in english. Also english words change meaning over time.

Murder isn't okay(I already showed you that was what God's saying), but killing isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't think the U.S. army is acting God.

I see, so even though the original word does mean "kill" or "murder", Jesus himself never killed anyone, and many English translations use the word "kill", you have chosen to believe killing is actually OK if it's just to assert our authority over others (if we are god, a part of the criminal justice system or the military), so you're going to assume God really meant CERTAIN types of killing. A shining example of morality for us all to follow!

 

[jasonwill2]

The Bible views suicide as self-murder. Since you're not a christian, then yeah you can do whatever you want to your body.


You, yourself, talked about some of the suicidal instances in the Bible, and again the Bible stories depict suicide as murder.

No, I said that there is only one instance of suicide that I know of in the Bible; Judas.

However the Bible doesn't say ANYWHERE on the matter of suicide. Care you back up your claims with some verses? I have never seen a verse that calls suicide "self-murder", or even talks about the act other than saying the Judas committed it. I've asked pastors about at as well as some family who are fundamentalists and the census is that they can't know how Yahweh views it because The Christian Bible is silent on the matter.

Seriously, go ask your pastor (or use google) if he can find you verses on suicide. He won't be able to find any that say what happens to people who commit it, or if it is really a sin or not. And I expect you to either find verses, or tell me that you can't find any when you respond to my post.

 

[CMike]

Jesus lived a perfect, sinless human life fulfilling all the requirements of the law which no other human being has done.

He was hardless sinless. He tried to turn jews away from their G-D.

And as I already posted G-D said to not add nor subtract from what he commanded.

In fact, by jesus claiming that he "fulfilled the law" he is challenging G-D which is another great sin.

 

[Vadergirl123]

If you believe in evolution, reason is what you would call an emergent property of our massive brains, with an enormous evolutionary / survival advantage

Would you say reason itself has evolved over the years?

 

[Vadergirl123]

I see, so even though the original word does mean "kill" or "murder"

The original word in its context means murder

Jesus himself never killed anyone, and many English translations use the word "kill"

No he didn't, but that doesn't mean he thought killing was bad. Jesus also didn't get married, or have a farm. Just because Jesus doesn't do something doesn't mean it's a bad thing to do.

you have chosen to believe killing is actually OK if it's just to assert our authority over others

No I never said that. I said "killing isn't necessarily a bad thing."

(if we are god, a part of the criminal justice system or the military), so you're going to assume God really meant CERTAIN types of killing. A shining example of morality for us all to follow!

We're NOT God. And God's against MURDER NOT KILLING.

 

[Vadergirl123]

I'd agree. I mean I think Paul saw himself as a church leader. But not a mouth piece for either God or Jesus.

No not a mouthpiece really, but God inspired him to write his epistles

Paul offered his opinion as he saw best to help the churches. Not a bad guy, but just a guy who had some opinions.

Yes at times he does share his opinion(I Corinthinans 7) but he makes sure to say it's not a command of the Lord, but more of his oppinion. What he wrote doesn't contradict with what Christ taught.

However the majority of Christians I talk to give Paul equal authority.

Interesting

 

[Vadergirl123]

But that's completely irrelevant to the point I'm making.

Actually it's very relevant. You're saying anyone with a gun can control someone, and chose what they want the rules to be. However God doesn't work that way, because there's only one God(no one else is like him)

But do I get punished for making the "wrong" choices? For example, I am an atheist and think the concept of God is laughable - and that if God did exist, he would not only be unworthy of worship, but an evil, despotic monster. Will I go to hell, according to your theology, for choosing to believe this?

A person goes to hell for being a sinner.

In my analogy, there is only one person with one gun. It's exactly the same situation.

This is an interesting anaolgy. If the gun goes away you have no more power. Also as soon as someone with a better weapon comes and overtakes you then your power leaves, and they can chose what the rules are. Your analogy is just showing how anyone with authority can come and chose whatever rules they want, but there's no definite rules because whoever has the most power can chose a new set.

Why?

Because he's God, he's the one who created the universe and human beings, also he's perfect while we're not.

So you tell me I can't empathize with a perfect being or know what he wants, then you claim to know what God wants. You've just contradicted yourself.

I also can't know what God wants, but what I say about him isn't my opinion. It's based on the Bible, which tells us about God.

Also, why would a perfect being "want" anything? If God is perfect, he wouldn't want or need anything, much less would they need to create life just to have a "relationship" with it. God sounds pretty lonely and desperate to me.

How do you know what a perfect being wants? Again you can only make assumptions.

That sounds like an abusive relationship. If God is fine with allowing people to suffer in hell for eternity, then God is not perfect.

Again why are you asusming you know what a "perfect being" is, wants? He's not fine with it per say, but he can't allow sin to be in heaven, and the punishment for sin is eternal seperation from him.

In fact, I would argue that such a God is beneath us and that we are infinitely morally superior to such a being. So, why believe in them, much less give them your loyalty?

You can argue whatever you want, but you'd just be basing your arguments on assumptions about gods that you seem to have formed yourself. The God I'm talking about isn't "beneath us" he's far superior. We're the ones who are beneath him. In fact we can't even understand him completely.

 

[Alceste]

The original word in its context means murder

No he didn't, but that doesn't mean he thought killing was bad. Jesus also didn't get married, or have a farm. Just because Jesus doesn't do something doesn't mean it's a bad thing to do.

No I never said that. I said "killing isn't necessarily a bad thing."

We're NOT God. And God's against MURDER NOT KILLING.

I've demonstrated that this interpretation openly contradicts several English Bible translations, and others have demonstrated that it is not justified by the original Hebrew word. I respect your personal opinion, but I think I will go with what the Bible actually says rather than what you would prefer that it had said.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So I've read a couple of posts about people claiming to be "ex christians" and I'm curious as to what they mean exactly. If you are an ex-christain were you in a relationship with Jesus Christ and decided you wanted the relationship to end? Was it that the belief of christiantity stopped making sense or something else entirely? Please let me know.

So, this was your OP in the entire thread, and after 60+ pages I've seen every single point brought up by former Christians called out and debated.

I'm curious - Why?