Ex Christians

[Sunstone]

So, this was your OP in the entire thread, and after 60+ pages I've seen every single point brought up by former Christians called out and debated.

I'm curious - Why?

Good question.

 

[Nakosis]

No not a mouthpiece really, but God inspired him to write his epistles

I get inspired by people. Doesn't mean I'm going to take it on myself to speak for them though.

Yes at times he does share his opinion(I Corinthinans 7) but he makes sure to say it's not a command of the Lord, but more of his oppinion. What he wrote doesn't contradict with what Christ taught.

No but he does add somethings. I guess it's up to the individual to decide whether he had any authority to make those additions.
And to get back to the thread I wouldn't call myself an ex-christian but much of the Christian doctrine I was exposed to, which turned me off to Christianity, was based on Paul.

So when I went back to read more of the Bible I found I was a lot more comfortable with what Jesus says in the Bible. So I don't really have a problem with Jesus. It's just everything Christians insist on including in along with Jesus.

 

[Vadergirl123]

So, this was your OP in the entire thread, and after 60+ pages I've seen every single point brought up by former Christians called out and debated.

That's not true. I haven't even replied to ALL of them. Some people I've just asked a follow up question and then been like, "gotcha, Hmm, or interesting." I didn't, "call them out." Only when someone asks ME something does debating start. I'd give an answer and then they'd say something, etc

 

[Vadergirl123]

Good question.

I already told Mystic that I'm not "calling people out" most of my replies were along the lines of "oh oaky" there's been some people where I've asked more questions about what they now believe, why they think what they do, etc, but I don't consider that "calling someone out." Only when someone's asked me for my opinion or said I'm wrong for believeing what I believe have I started debating.

 

[Vadergirl123]

I've demonstrated that this interpretation openly contradicts several English Bible translations,

It doesn't contradict them, the people who wrote them translated the word to hebrew word kill instead of murder as it was intended. Maybe to them the word kill meant the same as murder.

and others have demonstrated that it is not justified by the original Hebrew word.

I replied to what that person said and showed that in the context the word refers to murder in the instances you brought up.

I respect your personal opinion, but I think I will go with what the Bible actually says rather than what you would prefer that it had said.

Very well, You can believe whatever english translations you want, and I'll look at the original greek and Hebrew words since those are what the Bible was originally written in.

 

[Vadergirl123]

I get inspired by people. Doesn't mean I'm going to take it on myself to speak for them though.

In the scriptural context the word inspired means God-Breathed. I should've been more specific, sorry. It doesn't just mean God was his inspiration.

No but he does add somethings. I guess it's up to the individual to decide whether he had any authority to make those additions.

By add do you mean the greetings he gives or something else?

And to get back to the thread I wouldn't call myself an ex-christian but much of the Christian doctrine I was exposed to, which turned me off to Christianity, was based on Paul.
So when I went back to read more of the Bible I found I was a lot more comfortable with what Jesus says in the Bible. So I don't really have a problem with Jesus. It's just everything Christians insist on including in along with Jesus.

Ah okay I see where you're comming from.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That's not true. I haven't even replied to ALL of them. Some people I've just asked a follow up question and then been like, "gotcha, Hmm, or interesting." I didn't, "call them out." Only when someone asks ME something does debating start. I'd give an answer and then they'd say something, etc

Interesting. That isn't what I see at all.

 

[Nakosis]

In the scriptural context the word inspired means God-Breathed. I should've been more specific, sorry. It doesn't just mean God was his inspiration.

Ok, yeah I'd say that'd mean prophecy. But no reason to take the letters Paul wrote to the churches as prophecy is there?

By add do you mean the greetings he gives or something else?

His views on women, slavery and homosexuality to be specific. I think that is what most people are turn off about Paul by.

Ah okay I see where you're comming from.

I like to discuss the Bible to learn more about Jesus. That's the reality of my comments.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Interesting. That isn't what I see at all.

Hmm, what are a couple page numbers where I "called someone out?"

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hmm, what are a couple page numbers where I "called someone out?"

Jumping to conclusions about the sincerity of people's devotions began on page 2 and went on after that. "Would you say you had a relationship with God and then decided to end it?" shows that one hasn't comprehended the reasons why former Christians left the community.

Plus talking about how other denominations don't really teach what the Bible really says....not quite a simple curious comment.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Jumping to conclusions about the sincerity of people's devotions began on page 2 and went on after that. "Would you say you had a relationship with God and then decided to end it?" shows that one hasn't comprehended the reasons why former Christians left the community.

But if you look later on I said I don't doubt anyones sincerity if they really are saved(post 78, page 8) And I learned alot form there reasons. I more of asked follow up questions to see if they really were a christain in the first place(which I've said countless times that it seems like most are), what their new religion was like, to explain more indepth what they felt were failures of christianity, how it no longer makes sense to them, etc

Plus talking about how other denominations don't really teach what the Bible really says....not quite a simple curious comment.

When did I atatck someone's denomination?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

This is an interesting anaolgy. If the gun goes away you have no more power. Also as soon as someone with a better weapon comes and overtakes you then your power leaves, and they can chose what the rules are. Your analogy is just showing how anyone with authority can come and chose whatever rules they want, but there's no definite rules because whoever has the most power can chose a new set..

It's a bad analogy on your end though, as we cannot take the gun away from God.

the Gun is Hell for not making the 'choices' the exact way he wants you to. In any case of that, the gun goes off.

And your last sentence here is very odd because that's exactly how you are showing God to be, and you're ok with him doing it, yet you revile the idea of a human doing it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

But if you look later on I said I don't doubt anyones sincerity if they really are saved(post 78, page 8) And I learned alot form there reasons. I more of asked follow up questions to see if they really were a christain in the first place(which I've said countless times that it seems like most are), what their new religion was like, to explain more indepth what they felt were failures of christianity, how it no longer makes sense to them, etc

There was no need to ask follow up questions so that you yourself could determine whether or not the members here were Christian in the first place. We don't need to prove it to you. The OP was inviting former Christians to tell their stories.

When did I atatck someone's denomination?

First, please stop twisting my words. I did not say you attacked a denomination. I said that saying other denominations don't teach what the Bible really says is not just a simple curious comment. There's something implied there that suggests you believe yourself a self-appointed expert on the Bible and Christianity as a whole.

 

[Vadergirl123]

There was no need to ask follow up questions so that you yourself could determine whether or not the members here were Christian in the first place. We don't need to prove it to you. The OP was inviting former Christians to tell their stories.

I wanted to make sure they were defining a christain in the same sense I was(this way we were talking about the same thing). I don't understand what's wrong with that, and I've allowed everyone to share their stories.

First, please stop twisting my words. I did not say you attacked a denomination. I said that saying other denominations don't teach what the Bible really says is not just a simple curious comment. There's something implied there that suggests you believe yourself a self-appointed expert on the Bible and Christianity as a whole.

Very true you didn't say that. I just thought it was what you were implying, my bad. Hahaha I definitely DON'T think I'm an expert on the Bible. I have so much to learn about it and God. However some of the things people have said aren't in the Bible, so I did point that out. I don't think that makes me, "look like I believe I'm a self-appointed expert" though. When did I claim other denominations don't teach what the Bible says? When you say denomination do you mean Christain or religious ones?

 

[Vadergirl123]

we cannot take the gun away from God.

Exactly

the Gun is Hell for not making the 'choices' the exact way he wants you to. In any case of that, the gun goes off.

Why is the Gun hell? I was thinking of it more as the authority.

And your last sentence here is very odd because that's exactly how you are showing God to be, and you're ok with him doing it, yet you revile the idea of a human doing it.

Yes well I stated earlier that I believe humans are a fallen and cursed race and God's perfect and knows what's best for us. So yeah I do't think we shoudl chose anyone human being to decide what are morals are. Why would you want a single human tod ecide what everyone should believe?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I wanted to make sure they were defining a christain in the same sense I was(this way we were talking about the same thing). I don't understand what's wrong with that, and I've allowed everyone to share their stories.

Sure you have. You've also argued quite a bit on how the reasons for people leaving the faith and their perspectives of God is unfair. My question has been why.

Very true you didn't say that. I just thought it was what you were implying, my bad. Hahaha I definitely DON'T think I'm an expert on the Bible. I have so much to learn about it and God. However some of the things people have said aren't in the Bible, so I did point that out. I don't think that makes me, "look like I believe I'm a self-appointed expert" though. When did I claim other denominations don't teach what the Bible says? When you say
denomination do you mean Christain or religious ones?

It's been peppered throughout, and Christian denominations specifically. I'm mobile right now and I still don't know how to copy-paste, but the first one is on page 2 or 3 and then is stated again more frequently as the thread has evolved.

Your posts have been very sweet and at the same time very deft in injecting a "we should understand that God is all powerful and Jesus is the only way" argument in most if not all your responses. This is why I suspect the intention hasn't been so much to discuss why others have left, but that you can prove how Christianity, and specifically your Christianity, is right.

It's probably why this thread has continued for as long as it has.

 

[waitasec]

The Bible does talk about tolerance, we're to respect others, and treat them with love. However we don't have to agree with what they believe

give me an example of what this means in terms of tolerance?

 

[waitasec]

I got angry that people around me who weren't living for God seemed happier than I was, and I was trying to be a good person. It was frustrating so I decided I didn't want any thing more to do with a God who wuoldn't even reward me for "living for him," then I started wondering how could I possibly know the Bible was even true since there's a bunch of religious books out there. However I didn't really ever reach the point where I thought he didn't exist. I've always thought a God/gods exist.

so you compared yourself and determined your self worth to other people?
interesting.

The Bible

and what do you think they would say...their belief is based on convenience?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Actually it's very relevant. You're saying anyone with a gun can control someone, and chose what they want the rules to be.

No, I'm conjuring up a logical analogy in which a person with a gun puts it to your head and tells you to follow their rules, and that the logic you apply to God could just as easily be applied to that individual.

However God doesn't work that way, because there's only one God(no one else is like him)

Irrelevant. In my analogy, there is only one person with a gun.

A person goes to hell for being a sinner.

You've not answered my question. Do you believe I will go to hell for not believing in the existence of God and for believing that if said God existed he would be deserving of nothing but scorn and derision?

This is an interesting anaolgy. If the gun goes away you have no more power. Also as soon as someone with a better weapon comes and overtakes you then your power leaves, and they can chose what the rules are. Your analogy is just showing how anyone with authority can come and chose whatever rules they want, but there's no definite rules because whoever has the most power can chose a new set.

Once again, it's a simple analogy. There is one single person with one single gun. Stop adding all these irrelevances.

Because he's God, he's the one who created the universe and human beings, also he's perfect while we're not.

And why does that justify him telling us what to do and punishing us when we don't do it?

I also can't know what God wants, but what I say about him isn't my opinion. It's based on the Bible, which tells us about God.

But you don't know what God wants, so how can you trust the Bible's word? You either know or you do not know, which is it?

How do you know what a perfect being wants? Again you can only make assumptions.

It's not an assumption, it's basic logic. Want is a logical result of need and desire. If a being is perfect, they would not desire anything. They would be without flaw, and therefore without need. A perfect being that wants anything is a paradox.

Again why are you asusming you know what a "perfect being" is, wants? He's not fine with it per say, but he can't allow sin to be in heaven, and the punishment for sin is eternal seperation from him.

Why can't he allow sin to be in heaven? Isn't he perfect? Couldn't he just destroy all sin and allow all people into heaven? Would not a perfect, loving God do that?

You can argue whatever you want, but you'd just be basing your arguments on assumptions about gods that you seem to have formed yourself. The God I'm talking about isn't "beneath us" he's far superior. We're the ones who are beneath him. In fact we can't even understand him completely.

Your assumptions are no better than mine and yet you're also making all sorts of logical contradictions, like assuming God is perfect but wants things, or assuming that we canot know what God wants and then saying what God wants.

Honestly, I don't think you yourself have thought very hard about the God you have formed in your head.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Exactly

"Exactly"?
So, you don't understand... neither the moral implications of the idea that God is a blackmailer, nor, that you are confused in your own morals, in that, you think it's fine for God to put a gun to our heads and force us to do only what he wants, but that if a human does it you correctly recognize the idea as morally wrong.

Why is the Gun hell? I was thinking of it more as the authority.

The gun is Hell because it's a force that acts to prevent actual free choice in the person to whom the force is being applied.

Yes well I stated earlier that I believe humans are a fallen and cursed race and God's perfect and knows what's best for us. So yeah I do't think we shoudl chose anyone human being to decide what are morals are. Why would you want a single human tod ecide what everyone should believe?

Why should a single God decide when he's shown to be morally corrupt?