Ex Christians

[waitasec]

Yes some father's do abuse their children, and it's because they're sinners. However think of how great God is. He's not a sinner, he loves us, and he knows everything about us.

thats exactly what those little midianite boys were thinking...in fact they were most likely singing 'jesus loves me this i know', while being stabbed to death.

 

[Alceste]

thats exactly what those little midianite boys were thinking...in fact they were most likely singing 'jesus loves me this i know', while being stabbed to death.

And watching their sisters get raped.

 

[waitasec]

And watching their sisters get raped.

no no no...they were not spared for raping....i refuse to think that a god who would allow infant boys to be murdered would allow young virgin girls to be raped....now that is crossing the line.

 

[Alceste]

no no no...they were not spared for raping....i refuse to think that a god who would allow infant boys to be murdered would allow young virgin girls to be raped....now that is crossing the line.

Maybe they were being kept alive because they needed virgin girls to stone Israelite women who didn't bleed on their wedding night to death. You don't know. You weren't there.

 

[Vadergirl123]

You have spent much of this thread speculating about some unknown undefined infallible virginity test, when the text seems to indicate that a blood stained sheet was the only test used. When you need to engage in this kind of mental gymnastics and speculation it is obvious the instructions are anything but clear.

God's instructions are to kill a women who's not a virgin. You can't get much clearer than that. I was just speculating and making assumptions about how the process looked like.

Why would God have done this? He didn't correct the people who went on the crusades. He doesn't come down and say "this version of Christianity is wrong" about the versions that deviates from his original plan. He isn't very active in correcting his followers and the scripture.

The people on the crusades weren't his chosen people and most of them weren't even going on the crusades, "to honor God" they just wanted to get rich.

The law was flawed, seeing as there is no way a girl could prove to 100% that she's a virgin. Whether it was because of man or because of God, we can't know.

Look just because today we have no way of knowing for sure a girl's a virgin with 100% certainity doesn't mean inoccent girls were killed. If the Israelites had started using the law to justify killing inoccent girls, or even doing it accidently then God would've givn them more instructions to prevent the inoccent deaths. Since he didn't do this there's no reason to think the law caused a bunch of inoccent girls to die.

 

[Vadergirl123]

But how could they (we weren't there yet, by the way )
choose to sin prior to having eaten from the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil?

By chosing to go against what God says. Sin is anything we say, think, or do that goes against what God says.

You mentioned this previously; my previous response to that

can be found in post 738. Are you saying you disagree with your
bible when it says that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes
away the sin of the world?

Nope, when John called him that he meant that Christ would pay the price for sin. Christ paid the punishment for our sin, but we have to accept his payment. When Christ died everyone in the whole world wasn't suddenly saved. They'd just all had their sins paid for, and now had the option of accepting him into their lives. Realize their sins weren't taken away, Christ just paid for them. I mean if he had taken them away then after about 33 A.D we'd have had eternal peace.

That’s not how scripture seems to present it. God isn’t asking
our permission in this area.

Right, he didn't ask for our permission to die. I agree

The bible draws a parallel in a few

places between the manner in which we died in Adam and the
manner in which we are redeemed through Christ. There were
no options of choosing to be dead in Adam, were there? No.
Likewise, there are no options of being redeemed in Christ.
Again, Jesus said mankind had to be born again. The one being
born doesn’t choose for that to happen - the decision is made
higher up on his behalf.

Adam brought a curse on mankind, the curse of sin. Christ was the antidote to that curse. When he died he paid for our sins. By doing so we now had the option of believing on him and having spiritual life.

Also, it’s impossible to be separated from an Omnipresent

deity.

Separated in the sense that you're spirtitually dead to him, or not able to be in a relationship with him.

Sorry, but your insistence that God is great, is not a sinner, loves us and knows everything about is is totally negated by your assertion that he instructed some of us to murder women who could not prove they were virgins.

He instructed the Ancient Israelites to kill women who were not virgins yes, because that meant they'd been promiscuous in their father's house. It deosn't negate God as not being a sinner, loving us, or knowing everything about us.

 

[waitasec]

Sin is anything we say, think, or do that goes against what God says

so when a child eats the poison one puts in their crib after knowing what "no" means, is fully responsible for the choice of eating it, while not knowing what eating poison entails?

now that is a god i want to believe in...
i'm sold.

 

[Vadergirl123]

i don't care if they had a problem with it or not...i have a problem with it.

So what? The passage wasn't even adressed to you. It was to teh Ancient Israelites and they didn't have any problems.

which is why i am an ex christian.

Yes I know

the little virgin girls in numbers where just as guilty as the little midianite boys in numbers. so why spare the virgin girls?

I already said God was being merciful to the girls, and also if you read the whole story you'll see that when the soldiers came back form killing all the Midianite men
they had left the women and children alive. Moses then tells them to kill the non-virgin women(becuase they were the ones who'd seduced Israel) and that leaves them with just the boys and the girls.
There's 4options for how to deal with the situation.
1. Everyone can be killed
2. You can let all the children live and leave them in the desert where they'll die of hunger, thirst, possibly made slaves by the moabites, or offered as child-sacrifices to the moabite god.
3. Take all the children into Israel and when the boys grow up they'll seek
venegance.
4. Kill the boys and let the girls live.
Obviously Moses chose No. 4, I personally think that's the best option

so god changes his mind...oh right that means god is consistent, right?

God didn't change his mind. Those laws were NEVER adressed to us today. They were adressed to Ancient Israel.

sure he is. ask yourself what a midianite virgin thought when her entire family was slaughtered, including her baby brother?

She felt terrible, but her people had willingly gone against God.

and how do you determine that morals are to be based on the bible?

As I've said so many time, the Bible is God's words.(why do you keep asking me the same question? Do you reallythink my answer is going to change?)

exactly, so then why resort to murder if god will get em in the end anyway?

God wanted Israel to set an example to other nations that God wouldn't tolerate them decieving his people.

what is your guess?

Haha it doesn't matter and you wouldn't treat it as a guess anyway. You'd think I was stating it as a fact and then we'd spen another 40posts talking about why you don't beleive it's not possible. I don't really want to do that

he killed baby boys and left virgin girls alive, who were both just as guilty as sin...why not just kill the virgin girls just the same? that would be just.

Um okay, but you didn't answer my question, prove he's unjust according to who?

you are claiming the brutal murder of children, deserving of gods wrath, as just.

Yes according to God it is just because he has the right to kill whoever he wants since we're all sinners and the midianites had broken his law.

prove it. he killed baby boys and left virgin girls alive, who were both just as guilty as sin...why not just kill the virgin girls just the same? that would be consistent.

He showed mercy on the girls. God is merciful so for him to chose to be merciful in that situation doesn't contradict with his charater. Again if you want to think of mercy as inconsistency then go ahead.

 

[Vadergirl123]

thats exactly what those little midianite boys were thinking...in fact they were most likely singing 'jesus loves me this i know', while being stabbed to death.

No, the midianite boys woshipped Baal not God. So they were probably wondering why their god had failed them.

 

[waitasec]

No, the midianite boys woshipped Baal not God. So they were probably wondering why their god had failed them.

and of course the midianite virgins didn't...
that's right your god is consistently in consistent.

 

[Vadergirl123]

And watching their sisters get raped.

no no no...they were not spared for raping....i refuse to think that a god who would allow infant boys to be murdered would allow young virgin girls to be raped....now that is crossing the line.

Maybe they were being kept alive because they needed virgin girls to stone Israelite women who didn't bleed on their wedding night to death. You don't know. You weren't there.

There's no reason to think the midianite girls were raped. God gave laws that girls who were war captives could be taken as a wife to a man, but they'd be given a full month to mourn, and then the men could go into her. Also these girls were most likely not even of marrying age, so they probably didn't get married until much later.

 

[waitasec]

There's no reason to think the midianite girls were raped.

why because god ordered the slaughter of midianite boys?
makes perfect sense to me. very consistent.

God gave laws that girls who were war captives could be taken as a wife to a man, but they'd be given a full month to mourn, and then the men could go into her. Also these girls were most likely not even of marrying age, so they probably didn't get married until much later.

willful ignorance, or dishonesty.

to be honest i don't know what is worse


15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

19 “Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood. ”

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, “This is what is required by the law that the Lord gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp. ”

Dividing the Spoils

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part. 30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle. ” 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:

337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the Lord was 675;
38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72;
39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61;
40 16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the Lord was 32.

 

[Vadergirl123]

so when a child eats the poison one puts in their crib after knowing what "no" means, is fully responsible for the choice of eating it, while not knowing what eating poison entails?

Eh to some degree the child is repsonsible for eating the poison. He woudln't be responsible though if someone forced the poison into his mouth. Adam and Eve weren't children first off. God created man and woman, not boy and girl. Adam and Eve (unlike the child in your analogy) knew they'd die if they ate the fruit and while they might not have known what death felt like they knew it was that wouldn't be good. And nobody forced the fruit into their mouths.

now that is a god i want to believe in...
i'm sold.

You don't have to believe any god. Again you can believe whatever you want.

 

[Vadergirl123]

and of course the midianite virgins didn't...
that's right your god is consistently in consistent.

Oh I'm sure they did, but as I've said God showed mercy on them. You're just looking at mercy(which is a charcter trait of his btw) as inconsistency.

 

[waitasec]

Eh to some degree the child is repsonsible for eating the poison.

yes to some degree the child put the poison in their mouth...why do you think i underlined "fully"?????
nice ducking. god was also responsible for not creating adam with the knowledge to know the difference between good and evil which would enable adam to understand what god meant by the tree of glibber and glabber

see what i mean?

 

[waitasec]

Oh I'm sure they did, but as I've said God showed mercy on them. You're just looking at mercy(which is a charcter trait of his btw) as inconsistency.

gods mercy is inconsistent.

period. you yourself said so by saying he showed them, the virgins, mercy.

 

[Vadergirl123]

why because god ordered the slaughter of midianite boys?
makes perfect sense to me. very consistent.

No because had they been raped it would've gone against God's law(which I posted below)

willful ignorance, or dishonesty.to be honest i don't know what is worse

What?? What in that pasage makes you think the girls were raped. Nothing in their says they were raped, and my reference of women having to wait a full month is...
(Deu 21:10-14 NIV) When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, {11} if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. {12} Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails {13} and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. {14} If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

 

[waitasec]

No because had they been raped it would've gone against God's law(which I posted below)

what happened to thou shall not murder?
yes very consistent.

What?? What in that pasage makes you think the girls were raped. Nothing in their says they were raped, and my reference of women having to wait a full month is...

because they slaughtered baby boys and because of this...

(Deu 21:10-14 NIV) When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, {11} if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. {12} Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails {13} and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. {14} If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

i am reminded of the movie "the notebook" when reading this lovely passage. such tender love and care...

i have murdered your family, cleansed you and since your not good in bed, i'll let you go.


how sweet.


willful ignorance seems to fit.

 

[Vadergirl123]

yes to some degree the child put the poison in their mouth...why do you think i underlined "fully"?????

Oh okay well then we agree that the child is responsible for putting the poison in his mouth.

nice ducking. god was also responsible for not creating adam with the knowledge to know the difference between good and evil which would enable adam to understand what god meant by the tree of glibber and glabber
see what i mean?

I'm not ducking. And he gave Adam the ability to make choices. He also told Adam the consequence if he ate from the tree, and Adam understood that the consequence wasn't a good thing. Therefore he could've chosen to not eat from the tree. It's not like that was the only source of food.

gods mercy is inconsistent.

Mercy is inconsistent?? God can chose whoever he wants to be merciful to. That has nothing to do with inconsistency.
When you say God's inconsistent with mercy you're implying that since the virgin girls got mercy then the boys also DESERVED mercy. And that takes away the whole definition of the word because mercy isn't based on what someone deserves.

 

[Vadergirl123]

what happened to thou shall not murder?
yes very consistent.

What's your definition of murder? I don't think we're thinking of the same word.

because they slaughtered baby boys

I don't get it? Because they killed baby boys you think the girls were raped? What?

i am reminded of the movie "the notebook" when reading this lovely passage. such tender love and care...i have murdered your family, cleansed you and since your not good in bed, i'll let you go.how sweet.

Okay well my intention wasn't to show you that the passage was sweet and romantic. I was trying to show you how the women weren't raped. Although I'm sure some of them probably had very loving relationships with their new husbands.