Ex Christians

[waitasec]

Don't you think it's kind of convenient that they are the ones who wrote the story? Wouldn't you want to make your tribe's God as threatening as possible to deter other tribes from attacking? And, of course encourage your own people to fight believing God is on their side?

It's not unreasonable to think tribal leaders/priest would do this to manipulate the people of their tribe.

Why would they ally with the God of another tribe? They had their own God religious belief to deal with. Why would they think to betray their God for the Hebrew God any more then the Hebrews would?

[youtube]xdCrZfTkG1c[/youtube]
Queen - We are the champions, live - YouTube

 

[Vadergirl123]

i'm an ex christian because i was deceived into thinking god was a personal god.
but then one day i took my head out of my *** and realized there is too much suffering in the world including those that die in natural disasters, children dying after being alive for a day, people being born with out the ability to empathize and become sociopaths. so god isn't a personal god but a god that is indifferent.
i became an ex christian because it started to look like a convenient path to disowning my culpability. and i became an ex christian because i realized one day that i played a very important role in my salvation....i chose to believe.

Hmmm

I explained precisely what kinds of people I was talking about. Could you please respond to my point?

I already did, I said no it doesn't seem to be very fair for someone who doesn't even know God to be punished fornot knowing him.

He could have literally done anything, since he is apparently omnipotent. And yet he decided instead to wipe out an entire civilization of people.

The people were sinners, he had every right to wipe them out, and yes as I already said he could have taken away their abiilty to sin or allowthem to influence Israel and turn them away from him.

See, when a human being does that, it's evil beyond compare.

Yes it is, but God's not a human being. We as humans have no justifiable right to do that.

But when a God - a being of infinite power who could have resolved the problem by literally any other means imaginable or even remotely conceivable to his infinite mind - decides the best course of action to take care of a bunch of people not doing what he wants them to do is to kill every single one of them, it's far, far, far beyond evil. It's completely and utterly insane.

I told you some of the other things God could've done, but you don't seem to understand just how much God abhors sin. We look at sin almost as no big deal. It doesn't bother us in the same way, and your viewing God as almost a person, and you're trying to understand his feelings about sin the way you understand sin.

So they all deserved to die? That's a perfectly justifiable reaction?

Yes everyone of us deserves to die since we've sinned against God.

And are you saying that every single medianite, including their children, their unborn, their elderly, their sick, their handicapped, every single member of that civilization made a consious decision and deserved, therfore, to be killed for it?

I have no idea, but I know God knew their hearts, and yes again everyone of us deserves to die for our sins. However please don't forget that the Midianites had a chance to ally with the Israelites( in fact Jethro, a midianite priest was Moses' father-in-law, and he, himself, praised the God of Israel) However the Midianites leaders decided they wanted toally with the moabites and pay Baalan to curse God's people.

Nope. Don't buy it.

You don't have too, God's not going to force you.

And God couldn't have just prevented that with his infinite power?
Your God makes no sense whatsoever.

As I've already said before, yes God didn't have to kill them, he could've allowed them to turn Israel away from him.

Slaughtering huge numbers of innocent people for their beliefs or ethnicity is never "necessary".

God cares about Israel and had made a covenant with them. He wasn't going to allow the midianites to grow up and then attack Israel in venagence. And again the people weren't inoccent.

 

[waitasec]

God cares about Israel and had made a covenant with them. He wasn't going to allow the midianites to grow up and then attack Israel in venagence. And again the people weren't inoccent.

so much for a personal god....

btw, the israelites weren't innocent either.

Yes everyone of us deserves to die since we've sinned against God.

it's not a question of deserving death. it's going to happen to us all.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Don't you think it's kind of convenient that they are the ones who wrote the story?

No, besides if they were going to write the story they'd try to make themselves look good too, and they wouldn't have added the parts abot how they complained in the wilderness, or how they went against God.

Wouldn't you want to make your tribe's God as threatening as possible to deter other tribes from attacking? And, of course encourage your own people to fight believing God is on their side?

Sure, but there's times where the Israelites look kind of whiny. Even if the writers were trying to make God look good and powerful then they would've made their tribe look good too(not like a bunch of fickle complainers).

It's not unreasonable to think tribal leaders/priest would do this to manipulate the people of their tribe.

It's not super unreasonable, no, but that doesn't mean it's right

Why would they ally with the God of another tribe?

Their own high priest had praised God, but the leaders(for some reason) chose to ally themselves with people who wanted to curse Israel.

 

[Vadergirl123]

so much for a personal god....

He gave them a chance to chose him, but the Midianites chose to ally with other tribes(some of whom had already been defeated by Israel). Even after their own high priest had praised God.

btw, the israelites weren't innocent either.

They were not, and I never said they were.

 

[waitasec]

He gave them a chance to chose him, but the Midianites chose to ally with other tribes(some of whom had already been defeated by Israel). Even after their own high priest had praised God.

he didn't give a chance for little najeeb who was only 2 years old when "justifiably" stabbed to death ...see how that works?

They were not, and I never said they were.

then god isn't a personal god for all. and unwilling to meet people on their level of understanding...

fail.

 

[Vadergirl123]

he didn't give a chance for little najeeb who was only 2 years old when "justifiably" stabbed to death ...see how that works?

I already said he would've grown up with the desire to kill the Israelites. Why do you seem to think that he would've grown up to love God?

then god isn't a personal god for all. and unwilling to meet people on their level of understanding..

What? He is personal. That's the new covenat(testamnet) he made.
Huh? What do you mean he's unwilling, "meet people on their own level of understanding?"

 

[waitasec]

I already said he would've grown up with the desire to kill the Israelites. Why do you seem to think that he would've grown up to love God?

so where was the choice? he hadn't made one yet.
you realize that you are implying god is limited.

What? He is personal. That's the new covenat(testamnet) he made.
Huh? What do you mean he's unwilling, "meet people on their own level of understanding?"

no. he was unwilling to meet najeeb later in life, when he was able to make his own choices.... the "turn the other cheek" idea doesn't seem to fit here, at all...this is a justification for dirty warfare. that's it.

seems awfully suspect of a man made concept the deeper we dig.

 

[InChrist]

so where was the choice? he hadn't made one yet.
you realize that you are implying god is limited.



no. he was unwilling to meet najeeb later in life, when he was able to make his own choices.... the "turn the other cheek" idea doesn't seem to fit here, at all...this is a justification for dirty warfare. that's it.

seems awfully suspect of a man made concept the deeper we dig.

Growing up in a culture which was permeated with wickedness would have allowed no choice at all. God alone knows when a nation or culture has reached this point. He determines when it is time to exercise righteous judgment upon an entire culture that has become wicked beyond the point of turning around. He knows the point at which children brought up in such a culture and immersed in its evil ways will have no hope or choice of living otherwise. The innocent are affected by the sin of others. When sin becomes rampant in a culture and God determines it is time for judgment the innocent do suffer here on earth . Children suffer in a culture permeated with wickedness whether they live or die. Yet, if they die they are immediately with the Lord and free from suffering and have eternal life. Only God has this right or wisdom to execute judgment over life and death, individually or entire nations and cultures.

 

[waitasec]

Growing up in a culture which was permeated with wickedness would have allowed no choice at all.

exactly.

god is not a personal god. he is more concerned with what a group of people think about him rather than the individual.

Only God has this right or wisdom to execute judgment over life and death, individually or entire nations and cultures.

then god is immoral as we see him change his mind over and over again in the bible.

 

[Vadergirl123]

exactly.god is not a personal god. he is more concerned with what a group of people think about him rather than the individual.

Within the old covenant(testament) God wasn't personal with everyone. That's why there were priests, the people couldn't just approach God themselves. However he became personal to everyone with the new covenant(testament)

then god is immoral as we see him change his mind over and over again in the bible.

You really think that if someone changes their mind then they're immoral?? If so then you must view everyone as immoral.

 

[InChrist]

exactly.

god is not a personal god. he is more concerned with what a group of people think about him rather than the individual.




then god is immoral as we see him change his mind over and over again in the bible.

You really don't know if God is changes His mind or overall objectives. He knows the future and you do not. You are only able to interpret His actions through your limited finite understanding.

 

[InChrist]

Within the old covenant(testament) God wasn't personal with everyone. That's why there were priests, the people couldn't just approach God themselves. However he became personal to everyone with the new covenant(testament).

This is a very important point and distinction between the OT and NT.

 

[Alceste]

Growing up in a culture which was permeated with wickedness would have allowed no choice at all. God alone knows when a nation or culture has reached this point. He determines when it is time to exercise righteous judgment upon an entire culture that has become wicked beyond the point of turning around. He knows the point at which children brought up in such a culture and immersed in its evil ways will have no hope or choice of living otherwise. The innocent are affected by the sin of others. When sin becomes rampant in a culture and God determines it is time for judgment the innocent do suffer here on earth . Children suffer in a culture permeated with wickedness whether they live or die. Yet, if they die they are immediately with the Lord and free from suffering and have eternal life. Only God has this right or wisdom to execute judgment over life and death, individually or entire nations and cultures.

What a sinister ideology. What, pray tell, does this "God" use to destroy wicked cultures? Would it sometimes be his followers, by any chance?

 

[Vadergirl123]

You really don't know if God is changes His mind or overall objectives. He knows the future and you do not. You are only able to interpret His actions through your limited finite understanding.

I hate running out of frubals

This is a very important point and distinction between the OT and NT.

Indeed it is

 

[-Peacemaker-]

What a sinister ideology. What, pray tell, does this "God" use to destroy wicked cultures? Would it sometimes be his followers, by any chance?

Genesis 18 really captures the heart of the Christian God when it comes to exercising judgement. It's one of my favorite stories. The gist is that sodomy was rampant in Sodom and Gommorah so God decided to execute judgement by destroying them. Abraham, not wanting to see the righteous perish with the wicked pleads with the Lord.


Genesis 18

20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing —to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake. ”
27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”
“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”
29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”
He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”
30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”
He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”
He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”
32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.


We can easily conclude that God would not destroy it for the sake of one righteous man as well

 

[waitasec]

Within the old covenant(testament) God wasn't personal with everyone. That's why there were priests, the people couldn't just approach God themselves. However he became personal to everyone with the new covenant(testament)

then god isn't consistent.

You really think that if someone changes their mind then they're immoral?? If so then you must view everyone as immoral.

yes. morality is a subjective.
maybe god is a hypocrite, which to me is immoral

if i say lying is bad and then i turn around and lie because i had a justified reason to lie i am being inconsistent, hypocritical and immoral based on the standards i set for myself.

 

[waitasec]

You really don't know if God is changes His mind or overall objectives. He knows the future and you do not. You are only able to interpret His actions through your limited finite understanding.

i'm sorry but that doesn't compute with the way i think

i cannot not say god knows the future...you can and that's fine....but i can't.

but what i want to know is...how do you know this attribute is real through your finite understanding?

 

[InChrist]

What a sinister ideology. What, pray tell, does this "God" use to destroy wicked cultures? Would it sometimes be his followers, by any chance?

God uses whomever He chooses. He often used other nations, who were not His followers at all, to bring judgment on Israel when they fell into idolatry and wickedness.

 

[waitasec]

God uses whomever He chooses. He often used other nations, who were not His followers at all, to bring judgment on Israel when they fell into idolatry and wickedness.

and of course those that died in the haitian earthquake were guilty by association...ehyyyyyy?

:help:


i don't get it at all.