Ex Christians

[InChrist]

i'm sorry but that doesn't compute with the way i think

i cannot not say god knows the future...you can and that's fine....but i can't.

but what i want to know is...how do you know this attribute is real through your finite understanding?

Well, I do realize our perspectives are different and I accept that. It just makes sense to me that If there is a God who is eternal and who created all things, then this God would know the future.

I readily admit my understanding is finite and I would never know much about the attributes of God, except that I believe He has chosen to reveal things about Himself through the written word, out of necessity, so that humanity would have understanding they would never be able to discover by their own ability.

 

[InChrist]

and of course those that died in the haitian earthquake were guilty by association...ehyyyyyy?

:help:


i don't get it at all.

I didn't say anything about natural disasters.

 

[waitasec]

I didn't say anything about natural disasters.

fair enough...
so when the world is hostage while looking at the conflict in the middle east...it's because...someone saw their father naked?

 

[InChrist]

fair enough...
so when the world is hostage while looking at the conflict in the middle east...it's because...someone say their father naked?

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

 

[waitasec]

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

genesis 9

if i am not mistaken...and i may be wrong....
it's when the conflict between the palestinians and israel began

but i could be wrong...

 

[Vadergirl123]

then god isn't consistent.

Yes he is, he made a convenant with the Israelites but they broke it. Then instead of just giving up on them he formed a new covenant and also allowed gentiles to be part of it. He's consistent by continuing to care about us even when we brake his law.

yes. morality is a subjective.

Then you believe everyone is immoral(which would include yourself if you've changed your mind) and therefore I have no reason to believe what you say about morailty(since you've basically just said you're an immoral person)unless of course I misunderstood you.

maybe god is a hypocrite, which to me is immoral

Hypocrites are also immoral to you? What if I don't think hypocrites are immoral. If I think they are moral, then it doesn't matter what you think about them right? And wouldn't that also just mean that God's immoral to you.(or that he being immoral is just your opinion of him)

if i say lying is bad and then i turn around and lie because i had a justified reason to lie i am being inconsistent, hypocritical and immoral based on the standards i set for myself.

God's not a hypocrite, he didn't say lying was bad and then start lying.
He said not to murder , but then he didn't murder(or to put it better he didn't perform unlawful, premedaited killing.)
He said stealing was wrong, and then God didn't steal(also since he created everything it already belongs to him in the first place)
He doesn't commit audultery, etc..There's no reason to think God's a hypocrite.

 

[Vadergirl123]

genesis 9
if i am not mistaken...and i may be wrong....
it's when the conflict between the palestinians and israel began
but i could be wrong...

Waitasec, that passage is about Noah. We're not Noah. Noah died a looong time ago. Disaters today have nothing to do with Noah or anyone seeing anyones father naked.
We have problems in todays world because of sin, and because we're a cursed fallen race. That's not God's fault, or Noah's

 

[waitasec]

Yes he is, he made a convenant with the Israelites but they broke it. Then instead of just giving up on them he formed a new covenant and also allowed gentiles to be part of it. He's consistent by continuing to care about us even when we brake his law.

how did they break it...?
and after you show me...doesn't god not keep a record of wrong doing?

Then you believe everyone is immoral(which would include yourself if you've changed your mind) and therefore I have no reason to believe what you say about morailty(since you've basically just said you're an immoral person)unless of course I misunderstood you.

i think we had this discussion before. what i think somethings is right for me, is wrong for you and the other way around...there is no objective morality.
for instance, saying that it is justifiable for innocent babies to die, is the equivalent to justifying why innocent children die in 'holy warfare'. i think it's that is horrific and inhumane, while you justify those murders as a casualty of war that your god ordained.

Hypocrites are also immoral to you? What if I don't think hypocrites are immoral. If I think they are moral, then it doesn't matter what you think about them right? And wouldn't that also just mean that God's immoral to you.(or that he being immoral is just your opinion of him)

what i think is moral matters to me. just as what you think is moral matters to you. we may agree with certain things but not all things.

God's not a hypocrite, he didn't say lying was bad and then start lying.
He said not to murder , but then he didn't murder(or to put it better he didn't perform unlawful, premedaited killing.)
He said stealing was wrong, and then God didn't steal(also since he created everything it already belongs to him in the first place)
He doesn't commit audultery, etc..There's no reason to think God's a hypocrite.

the fact that there is more than 1 covenant proves there is an inconsistent god given the fact that this god is understood to be all knowing...it doesn't' matter if israel failed, he knew they would fail, right?

instead of flooding the entire planet, why not sacrifice himself to himself and settle the score for everyone.

 

[Vadergirl123]

how did they break it...?
and after you show me...doesn't god not keep a record of wrong doing?

They went against his law(that's what his covenant was) and I think I know of what verse you're talking about and(if I'm not mistaken) is talking of God's love and how it doesn't dwell on the bad people do.
God told Israel if they broke his covenant bad things would happen, and he said good things would happen if they obeyed it, but they chose to disobey.

i think we had this discussion before. what i think somethings is right for me, is wrong for you and the other way around...there is no objective morality.

Yes we did, but you're not saying, "I believe God's a hypocrite or I belive God's inhumane."(which would imply it's your opinion), instead you're saying things about him as if they're facts and not your own opinon

for instance, saying that it is justifiable for innocent babies to die, is the equivalent to justifying why innocent children die in 'holy warfare'.

Not really(remember nobody is inoccent), we as human beings have no right to go out, kill children, and then say God told us too(especially when nowhere does he tell us to do that in his word)

i think it's that is horrific and inhumane, while you justify those murders as a casualty of war that your god ordained.

God had every right to kill those Midianite boys. You can say you don't believe he was justified(because it seems inhumane and horrific to you) but he did. Since we're sinners he has a right to kill every one of us.

what i think is moral matters to me. just as what you think is moral matters to you. we may agree with certain things but not all things.

Yes of course, but there's no reason to word your posts in such a way to sound like facts about God, if they're just your own opinion

the fact that there is more than 1 covenant proves there is an inconsistent god given the fact that this god is understood to be all knowing...it doesn't' matter if israel failed, he knew they would fail, right?

Yes God knew Israel would break his covenant, but that doesn't mean he's inconsistent. He gave us the 2nd covenant because he's merciful. He was giving us another chance

instead of flooding the entire planet, why not sacrifice himself to himself and settle the score for everyone.

Everyone was wicked(except Noah and his family) so God saved Noah. He didn't want to save everyone else because their hearts were" only evil all the time"
Obviously God knew their thoughts weren't going to change, and I don't see how sacrifing himself woudl have done anything for the people.

 

[thau]

Friend,


Simple logic: If all babies and retarded folks go to Heaven automatically...then the abortionists did the babies a favor.... and the mothers should drink and do drugs to make sure their babies are born messed up in the head and deformed.

Is your Jewish G-d allowing for short cuts? I didn’t think so.

It may very well be the aborted child is brought into heaven because of his innocence, but the great sin is now upon the mother, father and the abortionist, and of course, society becomes tainted and lost as well. Isn’t it obvious?

I think you have a good mind and heart, but some of your theology is far from confirmed. Those not evil enough for hell or good enough for heaven are surely not blotted out. We are not expendable ants in G-d’s eyes.

Your dialogue partner here demands empirical evidence because none of this makes any sense to him otherwise. But beyond the irony that that evidence has been shown time and again in countless ways, it is strange to me that bold deniers have no clue in the least how they got here (*) or what lies ahead, still they demand G-d be no wiser than they are.



(*) Spare me that DNA just sprung up from lifeless rock and then biological systems just came together and then amoebas eventually became peacocks by nonintellectual chance reactions. This alone makes atheism to be hopeless.

 

[mycorrhiza]

Spare me that DNA just sprung up from lifeless rock and then biological systems just came together and then amoebas eventually became peacocks by nonintellectual chance reactions. This alone makes atheism to be hopeless.

Actually, a puddle of organic chemicals is much more likely than a rock. Life coming from a rock is not unheard of in religion, though, but it's definitely unheard of in science.

Evolution isn't chance alone. It fits a quite logical system where the animals with advantages are more likely to breed, while the ones with disadvantages are less likely to breed. It isn't a series of random events, because they all fit logically into the system of living organisms. Evolution is proven beyond reasonable doubt since many years back. It's especially evident in the evolution of plants (if you care to visit the topic about plant evolution, there's a great documentary there about it).

Also, atheism has nothing to do with evolution. You don't need to believe in evolution just because you're an atheist and many religious people believe in evolution too.

 

[thau]

Actually, a puddle of organic chemicals is much more likely than a rock. Life coming from a rock is not unheard of in religion, though, but it's definitely unheard of in science.

Evolution isn't chance alone. It fits a quite logical system where the animals with advantages are more likely to breed, while the ones with disadvantages are less likely to breed. It isn't a series of random events, because they all fit logically into the system of living organisms. Evolution is proven beyond reasonable doubt since many years back. It's especially evident in the evolution of plants (if you care to visit the topic about plant evolution, there's a great documentary there about it).

Also, atheism has nothing to do with evolution. You don't need to believe in evolution just because you're an atheist and many religious people believe in evolution too.

I am not talking about evolution, really, I am talking about atheism so you can leave the Christians out of it for the moment. Life could never ever ever ever have evolved from nonlife to the fantastic forms we find in mammals by chance --- without an Intelligent Designer. Who do you think you are kidding? Of course I know evolution does not delve into where matter came from, that is a given, so I will leave that aside. But for you to come around telling me that lizards became birds because of some need, so "presto" feathers and wings started forming is insulting. Then try to sell it off as "no intelligent process involved." Then I am to assume all these inner organs and biological systems came together because of some primordial "need" nothing having to do with a creator. It is nonsense. Can those who say there is no proof of God handle being insulted? Or do I have to play patty-cake with them until the end --- just for appearance sakes?

 

[mycorrhiza]

Life could never ever ever ever have evolved from nonlife to the fantastic forms we find in mammals by chance --- without an Intelligent Designer.

All evidence points towards that it did. And once again, it wasn't chance. It's selection, variation, genetic heredity and environmental influence, just to name a few basic concepts. There is no need for an intelligent designer in the ToE, which is proven beyond doubt. It's difficult to find any biologists and paleontologists that don't agree with that.

Who do you think you are kidding? Of course I know evolution does not delve into where matter came from, that is a given, so I will leave that aside. But for you to come around telling me that lizards became birds because of some need, so "presto" feathers and wings started forming is insulting. Then try to sell it off as "no intelligent process involved."

Feathers gave insulation and was probably beneficial. The connection between dinosaurs and birds is confirmed. It was not due to a need, it just happened to be beneficial to the survival of the individual animal that then got to pass on his/her genes. You're clearly misrepresenting the evolutionary process, trying to cram it into a creationist mold.

Then I am to assume all these inner organs and biological systems came together because of some primordial "need" nothing having to do with a creator. It is nonsense.

They filled a function and helped animals survive. It was not due to a need, it was due to selection and mutations. Having a more efficient digestive system meant being a more efficient animal, which meant being more likely to survive. It's a very long process, at least 3,5 billion years from the earliest organisms to current animals. The first animals weren't nearly as complex. Do you have any evidence supporting your ideas against evolution?

Can those who say there is no proof of God handle being insulted? Or do I have to play patty-cake with them until the end --- just for appearance sakes?

There definitely is no need for insults, and I could very well handle being wrong. But you would have to start showing me evidence first (which you outright refused in the Evidence for Christianity topic. Instead you told me that it's my job to do the research to prove you right). Do you have any scientific evidence to support your stance?

There is definitely no need to be hostile.

 

[thau]

I won't be hostile, but neither will I endure countless responses of no value. My Evidence for Christianity post planted many seeds of facts and either/or propositions. I no longer have the desire to expound because I know the cynics responses by heart. If you think Fatima alone does not contain undeniable facts and truths demonstrating the reality of the Christian God because you say so based on your recollections or on very little investigation, then so be it. It is up to you to seek greater understanding if you were truly interested, and I wish you well.

 

[Quagmire]

I won't be hostile, but neither will I endure countless responses of no value. My Evidence for Christianity post planted many seeds of facts and either/or propositions.

That thread definitely went to seed in a hurry.

 

[waitasec]

They went against his law(that's what his covenant was) and I think I know of what verse you're talking about and(if I'm not mistaken) is talking of God's love and how it doesn't dwell on the bad people do.
God told Israel if they broke his covenant bad things would happen, and he said good things would happen if they obeyed it, but they chose to disobey.

alright what was the disobedient act done..can you elaborate?

Yes we did, but you're not saying, "I believe God's a hypocrite or I belive God's inhumane."(which would imply it's your opinion), instead you're saying things about him as if they're facts and not your own opinon

when jesus says this:

luke 6:27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
contradicts this

numbers 31:131 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites.

it's not the same god. not by a long shot.

Not really(remember nobody is inoccent), we as human beings have no right to go out, kill children, and then say God told us too(especially when nowhere does he tell us to do that in his word)

but the virgin girls .... they were spared for what purpose?

God had every right to kill those Midianite boys. You can say you don't believe he was justified(because it seems inhumane and horrific to you) but he did. Since we're sinners he has a right to kill every one of us.

not when you take luke 6:27 into consideration...then he's a hypocrite
(you do realize that i don't really think he is a hypocrite, it's just these inconsistent unverifiable attributes present a dilemma....for me)

Yes of course, but there's no reason to word your posts in such a way to sound like facts about God, if they're just your own opinion


Yes God knew Israel would break his covenant, but that doesn't mean he's inconsistent. He gave us the 2nd covenant because he's merciful. He was giving us another chance

it's there and that is how i see it.
you can't tell me the it's blue when i see green.
another reason why this idea of god is fallible...all the disclaimers ... 'it didn't work that way then...but it works like that now'
i don't get that line of thinking. it isn't consistent.

Everyone was wicked(except Noah and his family) so God saved Noah. He didn't want to save everyone else because their hearts were" only evil all the time"
Obviously God knew their thoughts weren't going to change, and I don't see how sacrifing himself woudl have done anything for the people.

another disclaimer....


are you going to tell me that the tower of babel was about god feeling threatened?

gen 11:6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.


if anything they would have suffered altitude sickness...but of course god knew that, didn't he?

 

[thau]

That thread definitely went to seed in a hurry.

Yes, and so has true Christianity in America and Western Europe --- now only found in great numbers in Africa and Asia.

These debates are a diversion for me, nothing more. I am preparing for death and judgment at all times. How people can go through life uninformed, apathetic and lazy about the reality of God and beyond --- well... nothing perplexes me more.

 

[Quagmire]

Yes, and so has true Christianity in America and Western Europe --- now only found in great numbers in Africa and Asia.

Africa: you mean where they're still stoning and burning witches? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33h_h7mtoN0

These debates are a diversion for me, nothing more. I am preparing for death and judgment at all times. How people can go through life not uninformed, apathetic and lazy about the reality of God and beyond --- well... nothing perplexes me more.

"How people can go through life not uninformed," think that's called a Freudian slip.

nothing perplexes me more.

How many other things have you questioned?

 

[mycorrhiza]

I won't be hostile, but neither will I endure countless responses of no value. My Evidence for Christianity post planted many seeds of facts and either/or propositions. I no longer have the desire to expound because I know the cynics responses by heart. If you think Fatima alone does not contain undeniable facts and truths demonstrating the reality of the Christian God because you say so based on your recollections or on very little investigation, then so be it. It is up to you to seek greater understanding if you were truly interested, and I wish you well.

I do take offense at being called a cynic. A skeptic, definitely, but not a cynic.

The evidence around Fatima is anecdotal at best. The longing for supernatural events can be stunningly convincing, as the people saw what they wanted to see. Retinal after-images of the sun were interpreted as the sun dancing. There is no scientific evidence for it, and the sun can't actually have danced since the activity was only reported near Fatima. I would say that it was a meteorological phenomena combined with want for the supernatural, as it wasn't even seen by many of the bystanders. There are people who are absolutely convinced that homeopathy can cure cancer and there are many stories that says it can, but that doesn't mean that it can as there is absolutely no scientific evidence in favor of homeopathy. The human mind is an extremely powerful thing.

The only ones who will interpret the miracle of Fatima as absolute proof is the the people who already believe. Even if it did happen, it could very well have been created by aliens or by a God of another religion, perhaps a trickster. There are much better ways for the Christian God to give evidence of His existence.

It is up to you who made the claims to provide evidence of their truth. I have searched for scientific evidence of miracles many times and found none.

 

[waitasec]

I do take offense at being called a cynic. A skeptic, definitely, but not a cynic.

don't worry...this is a common tactic people use when they fail to persuade...