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Ex Christians

thau

Well-Known Member
Africa: you mean where they're still stoning and burning witches? [youtube]33h_h7mtoN0[/youtube]
"Witches" Burnt in Kenya - YouTube


"How people can go through life not uninformed," think that's called a Freudian slip.



How many other things have you questioned?

Your report doesn't say who or much else about the sources of this? If anyone is doing widespread killing it is tribal conflicts based on dominations of neighbors or strange beliefs not found in Christianity. In the Sudan and Nigeria, it is the Christians being slaughtered by extremist Islamic ties. But if you were better informed, you would know what I am talking about when it comes to great evangelizations of many Africans formally of pagan faiths and bad ways.

How many other things have I questioned? I don't follow you? I surely do not sit in such great uncertainties about God and death as so many around here do. What is more important than that, a beach vacation?
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
So I've read a couple of posts about people claiming to be "ex christians" and I'm curious as to what they mean exactly. If you are an ex-christain were you in a relationship with Jesus Christ and decided you wanted the relationship to end? Was it that the belief of christiantity stopped making sense or something else entirely? Please let me know.

It isn't that my relationship with Christ ended its that I ceased believing much of what Christianity teaches about Christ. I considered myself a Christo Pagan for some time, but now I consider myself just Kemetic specifically. Jesus is one of my spiritual teachers, as Kemetics do have those. I do not believe in Christianity. Interestingly though, I've never declared my wish to the Episcopal Church to break my church membership. I'm probably still Anglican in that way, but not in good standing. I go a few times a year. Sometimes I take the sacrament, but I don't think I'm Christian by Faith.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
I do take offense at being called a cynic. A skeptic, definitely, but not a cynic.

The evidence around Fatima is anecdotal at best. The longing for supernatural events can be stunningly convincing, as the people saw what they wanted to see. Retinal after-images of the sun were interpreted as the sun dancing. There is no scientific evidence for it, and the sun can't actually have danced since the activity was only reported near Fatima. I would say that it was a meteorological phenomena combined with want for the supernatural, as it wasn't even seen by many of the bystanders. There are people who are absolutely convinced that homeopathy can cure cancer and there are many stories that says it can, but that doesn't mean that it can as there is absolutely no scientific evidence in favor of homeopathy. The human mind is an extremely powerful thing.

The only ones who will interpret the miracle of Fatima as absolute proof is the the people who already believe. Even if it did happen, it could very well have been created by aliens or by a God of another religion, perhaps a trickster. There are much better ways for the Christian God to give evidence of His existence.

It is up to you who made the claims to provide evidence of their truth. I have searched for scientific evidence of miracles many times and found none.


Yes, I suppose. We now live in this politically correct world where everyone values themselves so highly that the slightest offense is grounds for suing and telling everyone how injured you are. How soft we have become.

Fatima is not on trial here... you are. 50,000 or more of the 70,000 people did not all hallucinate and see the very same thing, Ok? 70,000 people did not imagine their rain drenched clothes and soggy ground becoming bone dry in 12 minutes, Ok? A scientist attested to that and said for nature and the sun to do that on its own in 12 minutes, every person would have to be incinerated. The communist journalists of the anti-Catholic lisbon newspaper 'O Seculo' did not tell the facts as I did in their paper because they wanted to lie about it, Ok? They were there to mock the prediction and sign and hope the people of Portugal would do the same and turn away from the Church. But to their utter amazement, they saw the miracle of the sun just as did the vast majority and reported the facts. Both the Portugese original paper and the English translation can be found on the internet, with photos. These three children all under 10 were put in jail for three days and interrogated by the marxist authorities to keep them from going to the apparition site in August. Sounds kind of crazy if there was nothing to this don't it? All three of he children screamed in horror in July because Mary showed them a vision of hell. Made up? Then she said tell the people in 90 days on October 13 they will all see a great sign. What a coincidence it happens that exact day and at least 50,000 people see the exact same thing, many of them cynics or skeptics. She also told the children Francisco and Jacinta would die soon but Lucia would live a very long time. The two youngest died as foretold within a year and a half from the flu, Lucia lived until she was 95 years old. Far more to the facts if anyone REALLY CARES.
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
Yes, I suppose. We now live in this politically correct world where everyone values themselves so highly that the slightest offense is grounds for suing and telling everyone how injured you are. How soft we have become.

And further insult... Please do adhere to the Christian way of humility and kindness.

Fatima is not on trial here... you are. 50,000 or more of the 70,000 people did not all hallucinate and see the very same thing, Ok? 70,000 people did not imagine their rain drenched clothes and soggy ground becoming bone dry in 12 minutes, Ok? A scientist attested to that and said for nature and the sun to do that on its own in 12 minutes, every person would have to be incinerated.
I never mentioned hallucination, and I don't believe it was hallucination. Illusion, though. Did every single one report that or did just a few? From the information I've gathered, only a few persons reported clothes drying up and the evidence is once again anecdotal at best.

The communist journalists of the anti-Catholic lisbon newspaper 'O Seculo' did not tell the facts as I did in their paper because they wanted to lie about it, Ok? They were there to mock the prediction and sign and hope the people of Portugal would do the same and turn away from the Church. But to their utter amazement, they saw the miracle of the sun just as did the vast majority and reported the facts. Both the Portugese original paper and the English translation can be found on the internet, with photos.
Any photos of the actual sun miracle? I just found photos of people looking up. If it actually happened, everyone who watched would have seen it. I still stand by meteorological phenomena and/or placebo / mind playing tricks.

These three children all under 10 were put in jail for three days and interrogated by the marxist authorities to keep them from going to the apparition site in August. Sounds kind of crazy if there was nothing to this don't it? All three of he children screamed in horror in July because Mary showed them a vision of hell. Made up?
Many marxists were militantly anti-religious. It has nothing to do with the truth of the claims. Children are known to lie for attention.

Then she said tell the people in 90 days on October 13 they will all see a great sign. What a coincidence it happens that exact day and at least 50,000 people see the exact same thing, many of them cynics or skeptics. She also told the children Francisco and Jacinta would die soon but Lucia would live a very long time. The two youngest died as foretold within a year and a half from the flu, Lucia lived until she was 95 years old. Far more to the facts if anyone REALLY CARES.
People saw what they wanted to see. Why did some people report not seeing it at all? You're being quite selective here, as there have been tons of predictions that never came true. If enough people predict enough things, some of them are bound to happen.

The evidence is once again anecdotal at best. Could you provide any actual evidence for this? A scientific report on the sun activities?

The predictions made by the children were only revealed after the events already happened, which doesn't help their case.
 
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Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Your report doesn't say who or much else about the sources of this?

Sorry, this one should be a little clearer: HBO: A Family is a Family is a Family: A Rosie O'Donnell Celebration: Synopsis

It's mostly Pentecostal churches in Nigeria, and their victims are mostly children.

Unfortunetly, almost all of the more specific videos require a youtube account for access, and would probably be too graphic too post here anyway.

If anyone is doing widespread killing it is tribal conflicts based on dominations of neighbors or strange beliefs not found in Christianity.

Wrong: these witch hunts and witch-burning's are orchestrated by local "Christian" churches.

In the Sudan and Nigeria, it is the Christians being slaughtered by extremist Islamic ties.

Don't change the subject.

But if you were better informed, you would know what I am talking

And if you were better informed you would know what you were talking about.

about when it comes to great evangelizations of many Africans formally of pagan faiths and bad ways.

"great evangelicalizations" not sure I even want to know what that means.

"bad ways"? You mean like not burning people?

How many other things have I questioned? I don't follow you?

It was a simple question.

I surely do not sit in such great uncertainties about God

I would have guessed that. Generally only people who have a genuine interest in knowing God have questions about Him.

and death as so many around here do.
You haven't heard one word anyone in here has said to you so how would you know?

What is more important than that, a beach vacation?

You have no idea whats going on around you at any given moment, and you seem bound and determined not to let anything interfere with that.

So who's on vacation?
 
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thau

Well-Known Member
You refuse to acknowledge what Christianity has done for a lost world. I gave you insights and they are all dismissed with cavalier nothingness, save for finding sins of Christians and ignoring all else. I don't really care, you are not a close acquaintance of mine. Feel free to remain confident that nothing can be known about God.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Christianity has done a lot of harm to the world too, and it still is. Does Uganda ring a bell?
 

thau

Well-Known Member

People saw what they wanted to see. Why did some people report not seeing it at all? You're being quite selective here, as there have been tons of predictions that never came true. If enough people predict enough things, some of them are bound to happen.

God does as He pleases. If you want to believe in a few thousand who were not allowed to see and dismiss the 50,00 or more who did, do as you please. On over 20 occasions an estimated total of 200,000 Muslims saw Mary on a cathedral in Zeitoun, Egypt in 1968. Maybe another 50,000 did not. But they did see the white birds flying at night at dizzying speeds every time she allegedly appeared. They also saw the plumes of purple and orange smoke and the lights that no authority could identify the source of it.


The evidence is once again anecdotal at best. Could you provide any actual evidence for this? A scientific report on the sun activities?


http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/miracle.asp

An Eyewitness Account by Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal

"It must have been 1:30 p.m when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time

"The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.

"Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet...turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun's disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl.

"During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask. People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My own hand was the same color.

"Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.

"All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena."

Professor Almeida Garrett's full account may be found in Novos Documentos de Fatima (Loyala editions, San Paulo, 1984)





The predictions made by the children were only revealed after the events already happened, which doesn't help their case.


What? How could they reveal the predictions until they received them? All three children were alive when the predictions were known by the public.


 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
You refuse to acknowledge what Christianity has done for a lost world. I gave you insights and they are all dismissed with cavalier nothingness, save for finding sins of Christians and ignoring all else. I don't really care, you are not a close acquaintance of mine. Feel free to remain confident that nothing can be known about God.

Not sure who you''re talking to here, but if it's me all you're doing is side-stepping the issues. You're choice, but it doesn't exactly put your religion in a glorious light.

You bring up a point, someone shows you why it isn't valid, and your response is "So, I don't care if it's valid or not".


To answer your OP:

So I've read a couple of posts about people claiming to be "ex christians" and I'm curious as to what they mean exactly. If you are an ex-christain were you in a relationship with Jesus Christ and decided you wanted the relationship to end? Was it that the belief of christiantity stopped making sense or something else entirely? Please let me know.

What made me decide once and for all that I'd be better off looking for God somewhere besides in Christianity, at least in the form that you presenting, is that I saw and met so many Christians who think, talk, and act just like you've been doing throughout this thread.

edit: Oh, and thank you for that.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Not sure who you''re talking to here, but if it's me all you're doing is side-stepping the issues. You're choice, but it doesn't exactly put your religion in a glorious light.

You bring up a point, someone shows you why it isn't valid, and your response is "So, I don't care if it's valid or not".


To answer your OP:



What made me decide once and for all that I'd be better off looking for God somewhere besides in Christianity, at least in the form that you presenting, is that I saw and met so many Christians who think, talk, and act just like you've been doing throughout this thread.

edit: Oh, and thank you for that.


"Someone showed me why it isn't valid?" I can see which side doesn't take much for you to buy into.


As to your second point... I imagine a lot of people if in the time of Jesus, that despite all the goodness and wonders, would still want to be on board because of the obedience Jesus' faith requires. Instead they would point out how bad Judas is and say "why should we believe in that, look at how big of a sinner he is?"
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
"Someone showed me why it isn't valid?" I can see which side doesn't take much for you to buy into.

I can see that you think there are only two sides.

As to your second point... I imagine a lot of people if in the time of Jesus, that despite all the goodness and wonders, would still want to be on board because of the obedience Jesus' faith requires. Instead they would point out how bad Judas is and say "why should we believe in that, look at how big of a sinner he is?"

Typical dodge, "You don't want to be like me because you don't want to give up your wicked wicked ways".

Wrong: I don't want to be like you because I can see that you aren't going anywhere.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
I can see that you think there are only two sides.



Typical dodge, "You don't want to be like me because you don't want to give up your wicked wicked ways".

Wrong: I don't want to be like you because I can see that you aren't going anywhere.



I do not believe you see at all, sorry to say. I think you are intelligent and cordial, but when it comes to trying to disprove the deity of Jesus Christ, many of your talents and integrity (to a point) are left behind. You and they have no legitimate objections or reasons to maintain doubt to particular documented miracle claims or more importantly to all of the other historical and reasons for Christianity. Consequently, these exchanges tend to spiral downward from that. I will not worry about it, and it appears you will not either.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
I feel like most of the ex-Christians give two reasons why they bailed on Jesus. Usually the first one they give is a well thought out, intellectually impressive response to certain doctrinal issues they have. The second one is more rooted in carnal desires. As time goes on I can't help but get the feeling that reason number 2 was by far the biggest reason for abandoning the faith and that reason number 1 was created later in order to justify reason number 2.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I feel like most of the ex-Christians give two reasons why they bailed on Jesus. Usually the first one they give is a well thought out, intellectually impressive response to certain doctrinal issues they have. The second one is more rooted in carnal desires. As time goes on I can't help but get the feeling that reason number 2 was by far the biggest reason for abandoning the faith and that reason number 1 was created later in order to justify reason number 2.

You should be cautious when you pass judgment on others, as it reflects your own character more than theirs.

To put it bluntly, this makes you sound like a bit of a pervert.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
You should be cautious when you pass judgment on others, as it reflects your own character more than theirs.

To put it bluntly, this makes you sound like a bit of a pervert.


The problem is that so often in life people aren't even being honest with themselves. If someone isn't being honest with himself/herself how can he or she be honest with me?
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
The problem is that so often in life people aren't even being honest with themselves. If someone isn't being honest with himself/herself how can he or she be honest with me?

People who have left Christianity on RF seem pretty honest to me in general, and not unusually debaucherous. If you are envisioning that everybody who walks away from the Christian church goes directly to the nearest orgy, that says more about you than it does about them.
 

mycorrhiza

Well-Known Member
God does as He pleases. If you want to believe in a few thousand who were not allowed to see and dismiss the 50,00 or more who did, do as you please. On over 20 occasions an estimated total of 200,000 Muslims saw Mary on a cathedral in Zeitoun, Egypt in 1968. Maybe another 50,000 did not. But they did see the white birds flying at night at dizzying speeds every time she allegedly appeared. They also saw the plumes of purple and orange smoke and the lights that no authority could identify the source of it.

The numbers range from 30,000 to 100,000. There's no guarantee at all that over 50,000 people saw the event. Why would God not allow everyone to see it?

The second thing you mention could easily have been faked. That a huge amount of the people watching didn't see it isn't working in favor of it being a miracle.

http://www.fatima.org/essentials/facts/miracle.asp
That's still just an eyewitness account. Could you provide photos or scientific readings of the event?

What? How could they reveal the predictions until they received them? All three children were alive when the predictions were known by the public.
The three secrets of Fatima were released after the events they predicted (secret 2) had already happened. The third secret never even came true.


Could we continue this in your thread about Evidence for Christianity? So as to not go off-topic :D I would very much appreciate a further debate and if you could show me the evidence of faith healing that I asked for, that would be awesome as I've searched for hours on several occasions for any evidence regarding it. I'm willing to be proven wrong as long as you can provide proper scientific evidence supporting the miracles being actual miracles. However, to convince me that they're from the Christian God and not aliens, trickster Gods or something else, you would also have to give evidence of that.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I already did, I said no it doesn't seem to be very fair for someone who doesn't even know God to be punished fornot knowing him.
Right, so can you see now the problem I have with your statement "they had the chance to know God but didn't" and your inferrence that therefore they deserved punishment?

The people were sinners, he had every right to wipe them out, and yes as I already said he could have taken away their abiilty to sin or allowthem to influence Israel and turn them away from him.
As I have explained repeatedly God could have done literally anything rather than wipe them out. Why is it that you seem to think an infinitely wise, omnipotent being would have problems taking care of a civilization of people going against his wishes without the need to wipe out their entire society. That's utterly ludicrous.

Yes it is, but God's not a human being. We as humans have no justifiable right to do that.
Nor does your God.

I told you some of the other things God could've done, but you don't seem to understand just how much God abhors sin. We look at sin almost as no big deal. It doesn't bother us in the same way, and your viewing God as almost a person, and you're trying to understand his feelings about sin the way you understand sin.
You're completely avoiding the point and making excuses for something you know is utterly insane. You know that what God supposedly did was reprehensible, and yet you're making special allowances with these incredibly weak arguments. Please, just try and assess this as a reasonable, rational person would and tell me that it is sensible to believe in the existence of a supposedly loving God who sees fit to go into a genocidal rage just because some people chose not to follow him. It makes no sense, no matter what flimsy logic you use to try and support it.

Yes everyone of us deserves to die since we've sinned against God.
Good thing God doesn't exist, then, otherwise that would be crazy.

I have no idea, but I know God knew their hearts, and yes again everyone of us deserves to die for our sins. However please don't forget that the Midianites had a chance to ally with the Israelites( in fact Jethro, a midianite priest was Moses' father-in-law, and he, himself, praised the God of Israel) However the Midianites leaders decided they wanted toally with the moabites and pay Baalan to curse God's people.
Why does that make any difference whatsoever? You don't seem to understand that what the medianites did has no bearing whatsoever on the means by which God decided to "punish" them for it being utterly and completely nonsensical. It's like if I shot a child in the face, you'd call me a murderer, and I keep explaining: "No, you don't understand what he did - he poked me in the side, and I really hate being poked in the side. He had a chance to not poke me in the side but he did it anyway, so he deserved to die."

The point is the punishment doesn't fit the crime, nor does it fit a supposedly all-powerful all-loving God, nor does it make any rational sense whatsoever. Stop repeating such nonsense.

You don't have too, God's not going to force you.
Good. Then you shouldn't either.

As I've already said before, yes God didn't have to kill them, he could've allowed them to turn Israel away from him.
And, as I've already said before, God could have easily prevented both. Do you even read my posts?

God cares about Israel and had made a covenant with them. He wasn't going to allow the midianites to grow up and then attack Israel in venagence. And again the people weren't inoccent.
Yes, they were, and no amount of obfuscation will change the fact that God killed millions of men, women and children who didn't do a damn thing wrong in their lives. Your inane psychology of "everyone has sinned therefore everyone deserves to die" is utterly insubstantial and sickeningly self-deprocating. Give yourself, and humanity, more respect than that.
 

Vadergirl123

Active Member
alright what was the disobedient act done..can you elaborate?
They forsook God for other gods and stopped following his laws. And yes God did know that they would break his law, he had been planning his new covenant with Jesus to give a 2nd chance.
when jesus says this:
luke 6:27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
contradicts this
numbers 31:131 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites.
it's not the same god. not by a long shot.
Same God, different covenant
but the virgin girls .... they were spared for what purpose?
Remember the options I gave you of what coudl happen to the children. Well girls weren't going to grow up to attack Israel in venegance.
not when you take luke 6:27 into consideration...then he's a hypocrite
(you do realize that i don't really think he is a hypocrite, it's just these inconsistent unverifiable attributes present a dilemma....for me)
I'm glad you don't really think he's a hypocrite :) and as I said above same God different covenant.
it's there and that is how i see it.
you can't tell me the it's blue when i see green.

Yes I realize you see God as an evil, inconsistent being, but that's your opinion of him. Also while I can try to convince you what you see as green is actually blue, you're right in that I most likely won't change your mind. However the thing you see as green might really be blue, but you just think it being green is more reasonable(however just because soemthing's reasonable doesn't mena it's right/truth)
another disclaimer....
are you going to tell me that the tower of babel was about god feeling threatened?
Threatened isn't the right word, but God didn't want people to start thinking of themselves as all high and mighty.
if anything they would have suffered altitude sickness...but of course god knew that, didn't he?
Hahaha yes he did
To answer your OP:
What made me decide once and for all that I'd be better off looking for God somewhere besides in Christianity, at least in the form that you presenting, is that I saw and met so many Christians who think, talk, and act just like you've been doing throughout this thread.
edit: Oh, and thank you for that.
Okay, so where else did you look? As long as you realize who the Biblical God is(a just, good being who has every right to kill us for our sin but choses not too, and instead sent his son to die for us) then you're welcome. :D
 
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