Heyo
Veteran Member
And how should that alter my conclusion. That fact remains that most people here have an illusion of knowledge and no evidence or reason for their opinion.
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EXACTLY, What Is The Soul?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
The concept of "the soul" is synonymous with consciousness or self-awareness, the 'ghost in the machine' that makes a human being not just alive but a free agent with subjective experiences, thoughts, feelings and emotions ("qualia").
Without the 'soul'/'consciousness', we would be zombies or rather more like a plant (living but not a conscious agent).
There is no agreement among people, even within Christianity between the various denominations, about the nature of the soul - is it purely spiritual / immaterial? Is it comprised of some kind of subtle matter? Or is it simply an emergent property of neural networks in the brain?
Historically, Christian theologians representing different sects have espoused all three of the positions I've just outlined.
Most of the early church fathers believed in a spiritual soul that was both immortal and divisible from the human body (this became the orthodox position of the Catholic Church). A minority position, represented by Tertullian in the third century, was that the soul should be understood as "material", albeit made up of a very rarefied and subtle form of matter that is imperceptible to the senses and invisible to us.
Some Christian sects, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, even believe in mortalism / physicalism - whereby the soul is neither spiritual nor subtle matter but a purely physical phenomenon arising from the brain. The ones that hold this stance typically believe in 'soul sleep' or non-existence between death and bodily resurrection.
Without the 'soul'/'consciousness', we would be zombies or rather more like a plant (living but not a conscious agent).
There is no agreement among people, even within Christianity between the various denominations, about the nature of the soul - is it purely spiritual / immaterial? Is it comprised of some kind of subtle matter? Or is it simply an emergent property of neural networks in the brain?
Historically, Christian theologians representing different sects have espoused all three of the positions I've just outlined.
Most of the early church fathers believed in a spiritual soul that was both immortal and divisible from the human body (this became the orthodox position of the Catholic Church). A minority position, represented by Tertullian in the third century, was that the soul should be understood as "material", albeit made up of a very rarefied and subtle form of matter that is imperceptible to the senses and invisible to us.
Some Christian sects, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, even believe in mortalism / physicalism - whereby the soul is neither spiritual nor subtle matter but a purely physical phenomenon arising from the brain. The ones that hold this stance typically believe in 'soul sleep' or non-existence between death and bodily resurrection.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Ah, a key moment for me in the past, was to realize that individuals calling themselves 'Christian' might not represent Christianity. Maybe a good analogy is the difference between a mathematician and a math class full of students. The students might not represent math itself that well.
Vouthon gives a useful expansion just above though, about attempts to understand the subtlety.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Naw....In that case I suspect my soul and I are not on speaking terms, and possibly accounts for my being deficient in most of these.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The mind is a function of the brain but the mind is not the brain.
I am not a scientist so I cannot explain this. I suggest you look at these websites.
Does Consciousness Exist Outside of the Brain?
The Brain is not the Mind
Rebecca Saxe: The Brain vs. The Mind
Scientists say your “mind” isn’t confined to your brain, or even your body
Traditionally, scientists have tried to define the mind as the product of brain activity: The brain is the physical substance, and the mind is the conscious product of those firing neurons, according to the classic argument. But growing evidence shows that the mind goes far beyond the physical workings of your brain.
No doubt, the brain plays an incredibly important role. But our mind cannot be confined to what’s inside our skull, or even our body, according to a definition first put forward by Dan Siegel, a professor of psychiatry at UCLA School of Medicine and the author of a recently published book, Mind: A Journey to the Heart of Being Human.
The difference is that that brain is pure matter with no identity whereas the soul is non-material and where you get your identity.
The mind is the fruit of the soul. Mind is the light which shines from the soul.
“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings………
But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
Basically a soul is the spiritual energy essence of who everyone really is. The first thing God had shown me about my soul during my childhood NDE/OBE was that it is a sphere of energy that extends way beyond the human body. Within it are smaller circles of energy that can be combined to accomplish all the tasks required for the soul to function. The next thing I discovered was that my thinking was not "up high" as coming from my head, but from the very center of my being. It was then imparted to me that my soul is the sum total of who "I" really am, all my many lifetime's of experiences, memories, personality, etc, everything contained within my soul as an invisible entity composed entirely of my mind's spiritual energy.
The soul can only exist in the spiritual realm/universe, and the body can only exist in the physical realm/universe. Because God created the physical realm/universe within himself, the spiritual realm/universe, God. Both are separate, one cannot abide in the other, but both are still God. For God is the total living universe, and the universe is the total living God. A person's body is therefore just an interface for the soul to interact with the physical realm/universe. It will spend as many physical lifetimes as required until it has spiritually evolved enough to pass God's judgment and enter the spiritual realm/universe. From then on the soul will exist as a purely spiritual entity that will continue to evolve thru-out all eternity and take on ever greater roles in helping God with his plan for ALL souls.
Many of us can access the abilities of our soul to obtain spiritual answers, read the energy of other souls, or any of it's other abilities. But most people cannot because they have been spiritually broken by all the negative stigmas and taboos placed on it's usage by society and religions. Thus trapping them in many more continuous life cycles than necessary before they spiritually evolve enough to pass God's judgment.
Skwim
Veteran Member
So, what is god's plan for all souls, all 107 billion of them (the estimated number of people that have ever lived) ?
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Where did Jesus EVER talk about rising from the grave? Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. Being born of the spirit has nothing to do with the physical body. It means spiritual rebirth.
All these verses refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jesus makes it very clear that only spiritual life is important; the physical body is not important.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
I believe that all die physically, but their souls do not die because the soul cannot die. I do not believe any bodies are ever raised from the grave because it is impossible to for a body once decomposed to recompose.
I believe that after the physical body dies, the souls of everyone who ever lived go to the spiritual world and take on a spiritual body. When Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God he meant that only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.
(1st Corinthians 15:35) "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
I believe that all humans have a soul that continues to exist forever (is eternal) but that is not to be confused with eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is near to God, meaning that they know and love God.
When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
The soul (spirit) of man is immortal, no matter what they believe or disbelieve. No soul ever actually perishes, so ‘perish’ in the verse above is symbolic for being far from God.
“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223
“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225
Those souls who are not close to God do not have eternal life because they are veiled from God, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.
“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243
And how do religions fit into this picture, particularly those not having any life after death or reincarnation etc. as part of such?
dfnj
Well-Known Member
Most people are philosophical materialists and have a built-in prejudice and bigotry with regards to this topic. Most philosophical materialists just assume the human brain is like a computer. Human beings have no real consciousness and everything is a side effect of brain activity.
Although, strangely after huge amounts of effort in studying the nature of human memory we really have no idea how memory works.
So there's another theory about human consciousness. The idea is based on the idea human consciousness is something more than just brain activity. The human brain is not a computer but more like an analog radio receiver. The signals or consciousness exists somewhere else and is not part of the brain. So things like ESP, telepathy, and other parapsychology stuff is just someone tapping into someone else's radio signal.
Of course, the philosophical materialists just presume all parapsychology is pure BS with an amazingly strong prejudice and dogma. But there are many experiments done with really good methods that have evidence to support the human brain as analog radio receiver model. Here's one of my favorites:
There are tons of really good experiments with excellent methods and with results support the non-materialist point of view. Just the Flynn effect alone is to me enough evidence to suggest there's more to human intelligence than just the material brain. How else can you explain the results???
Flynn effect - Wikipedia
I think the best evidence of the spiritual nature of reality is way double slit type experiments work in the study of quantum mechanics. What is the IT, or mechanism, and where is it located that decides something is being observed in a double slit type experiment in quantum mechanics? How can anyone be a philosophical materialists in the face of such convincing evidence we do not live in a clockwork Universe with hard determinism. Reality is changing right before our eyes, or more strangely spiritual, because of our eyes!
The way matter/energy just knows its being observed suggests to me we live in spiritual Universe not a material one. Regardless of the evidence being counter intuitive to most people we simply do not live in a clockwork Universe. Given the spiritual nature of the way matter and energy behaves, it does not take much interpolation to conclude the idea of each of us having a soul is not impossible.
There's another famous group of experiments but I don't have the book to reference them right now. But the gist of it is brain activity is dramatically reduces when people are taking psychedelic drugs. Given the heightened experiences most people have in their minds scientists were expecting MORE brain activity not less. Some people have argue this lack of brain activity along with the strong memories of very intense spiritual experiences people have while under the influence of psychedelics is evidence there is more to human consciousness than a simple side effect of brain activity.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
What you have posted from the Bible does not support your belief that the soul is immortal, or that there is no bodily resurrection.
After His resurrection, Jesus appeared to the Apostles and Disciples in a physical body, and they felt his flesh, and bone, and his hands where the nails had penetrated. This is found in the Gospels.
When Lazarus was dead, Christ told a sister of Lazarus in John 14, before He resurrected Lazarus," I am the resurrection and the life" Then he resurrected Lazarus from the dead.
He clearly showed that He was the power that would resurrect the dead, and He was the power that would grant life.
I note you are quoting something called "some answered questions". This appears not to be about Christian theology, but rather an attempt to attribute to Christianity the erroneous beliefs of other religions, hoping to create a homogeneous single faith. This can do nothing but fail. No matter how furiously you mix oil and water, they will separate.
Christianity is not like the other religions, it is based on truths not held by other religions, it was founded by the Son of God incarnate as a perfect human, and is therefore the purest expression of God, and where differences exist with other religions, the other religions are always wrong.
So, unless you believe that the Bible is the only authority of Gods nature, His authority, His acceptance, and His explanation of life, death and all things of God, then we really cannot have a productive discussion if we are not using the same yardstick to measure with.
Peace
Well the video did not prove it was more than a coincidence. The replies given by the parrot were individual extracts over a considerable period of time. The jury is out on any proof that video could offer.
In saying that, I do believe we are connected in Spirit and Mind and it is possible to communicate across space and most likely also time, in such a manner. Study on twins separated at birth is good research into this probability.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Imo, that was just a story men told and people believed it as if it really happened..
Imo, Jesus never resurrected any physical body from the dead.
I Am the Resurrection and the Life
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles[a] away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Jesus did not say that the body of Lazarus would rise again. He said rise:
Since our body is not who we are, saying "your brother will rise again" does not refer to the body.
Apparently, Martha assumed Jesus meant the body: 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
When Jesus said that He was the resurrection and the life and that whoever believes in Him will never die He was talking about the eternal life of the soul, NOT the life of the physical body. ALL bodies die because they are biological entities.
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The following verses are congruent with John 11:25-26 and they refer to the eternal life of the soul, not the eternal life of the body.
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
I was not attempting h to attribute anything to Christianity. I as just presenting my beliefs about eternal life and what it is. I do not believe eternal life has anything to do with the life of the physical body. and there is nothing in the Bible that supports the typical Christian belief that eternal life is about the physical body. Everything Jesus ever said in the NT supports mt beliefs that eternal life is about the soul/spirit, not about the body. Bodies do not rise from graves and live forever in a physical form because that goes against everything known to science..
Spoken like a typical Christian. Jesus is the ONLY way. ONLY you have the truth from God. You are free to believe that if you wish because you have free will.
No, I absolutely do not believe that the Bible is the ONLY authority because it is completely illogical that there us only ONE true religion from God and all the other religions not based upon the Bible are false. I also do not believe in things like bodies that have been decomposed for centuries rising from graves and floating up into the sky to meet Jesus. I believe that such verses were never intended to be interpreted literally, but rather they had spiritual meanings.
So I guess this discussion is over.
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Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
Religions don't fit in.
None of them.
They are all just man made mythologies designed to block people off from ever even realizing the true nature of their own soul, using it's abilities, and connecting directly to God.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
That would be one way to look at it.
And having the "consciousness exists somewhere else" part being the soul.(Read my post #146 above for fuller explanation.)
Which is why they will never completely understand how the mind really works, because they cannot study the soul made entirely of spiritual energy.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
And exactly what "proof" did you ever demand to see, and receive, that proves beyond any doubt that the bible really came from "god"?
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
Seriously?
You make a silly statement of:
"the Bible is the only authority of Gods nature, His authority, His acceptance, and His explanation of life, death and all things of God"
And are now claiming that you have no idea what my reply of:
"And exactly what "proof" did you ever demand to see, and receive, that proves beyond any doubt that the bible really came from "god"?"
Has to do with it?
The idea of a “you.”
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
To be a materialist one would have to deny one's own identity self as being real.
You would have to deny your own abstract senses. Abstract senses do not depend on feelings. Feelings often depend on abstract senses. Feeling and emotions are secondary.
IMV, One is guided by principles of thought and meaning vs. instinctual emotions.
To talk of the soul is to speak of that which gives meaningfulness to life. The bodily creature must be maintained and be given its necessity. But the body is otherwise also ruled by it's thoughts and relationships to what is meaningful. The heart of the soul, the will of the heart, and the mind that governs the will and the heart. There is the place of understanding.
Soul is recognized through meaning and introspection of the meanings we hold dear to, or not.
I suppose one could deny their own total identity and be ever-changing in a sea of emotions and thoughts. But nevertheless the identity is ever real beyond what is attached or none attached to it.
The soul is the higher self, the body is that thing that must be ruled and maintained.
You would have to deny your own abstract senses. Abstract senses do not depend on feelings. Feelings often depend on abstract senses. Feeling and emotions are secondary.
IMV, One is guided by principles of thought and meaning vs. instinctual emotions.
To talk of the soul is to speak of that which gives meaningfulness to life. The bodily creature must be maintained and be given its necessity. But the body is otherwise also ruled by it's thoughts and relationships to what is meaningful. The heart of the soul, the will of the heart, and the mind that governs the will and the heart. There is the place of understanding.
Soul is recognized through meaning and introspection of the meanings we hold dear to, or not.
I suppose one could deny their own total identity and be ever-changing in a sea of emotions and thoughts. But nevertheless the identity is ever real beyond what is attached or none attached to it.
The soul is the higher self, the body is that thing that must be ruled and maintained.