Experiencing God

[Sonofason]

It does not work that way for you. It does for other theists, and in particular polytheists, regardless of whether or not you personally agree with it. Yes, your god is not water, sun, or leaf. Mine gods are. From my point of view, I directly experience my gods on a daily basis, and I was explaining to you (and anyone else who reads) why that is. I see god(s) differently than you. You're allowed to disagree with my theology, and me with yours. What I find odd is that while you seem to respect experiences of god(s) that match your own theology, you don't seem to take those of other theisms seriously. This is exactly, exactly why many theists don't like sharing their religious experiences; because we're sick of outsiders telling us "oh, that wasn't god(s)" or otherwise naysaying and poo-pooing our experiences. I would not see it as my place to tell you whether or not you've experienced your god. I would appreciate, but do not expect, the same courtesy.

Well, actually, I honestly don't believe that you are a polytheist. Maybe you are. But I don't believe that you are. Nevertheless, I have reconsidered what I have said. In many ways, all of us are able to be defined by what we do. Without the knowledge of what we do, it would be most difficult for anyone to claim that they truly know who we are. Yes, you might know my name. You might know what I look like. But it would be very difficult to say that you know me, if you do not know what I do. If you know what I do, you might be able to know things about me that are in a very real sense, outward expressions of me. You might be aware of my generosity, or lack thereof. You might be aware of my sincerity, or lack thereof. You might be aware of my compassion, or lack thereof, etc... All of these help to identify me. We can be identified by what we do. If you were to experience any of these things about me, you could indeed say that you know me, at least to some extent, and that would be based on that which I do.

I suppose the same could be said about God. God is a creator. God loves, and so God is love. God shows mercy, and so God is mercy. God gives strength, and so we can say that God is strength. We can experience the things that God has created. We can experience the things that God does. It could very well be true that you consider the numerous creations and actions of God to be gods. Well, it's fine with me if you want to believe that, but I don't have to agree with you. In fact, I am free to object to such claims. And I do. The truth is, my God swallows up all of your gods, because my God is capable of doing everything that in your world requires numerous gods to fulfill.

 

[Quintessence]

Ah. The old "my god is bigger than your god" argument. Didn't your mother tell you size doesn't matter?

Also, I don't believe you're a human. The truth is, you're an alien from the extra-dimensional plane Gnorloshport and are trying to take over the universe.

 

[Sonofason]

Ah. The old "my god is bigger than your god" argument. Didn't your mother tell you size doesn't matter?

Also, I don't believe you're a human. The truth is, you're an alien from the extra-dimensional plane Gnorloshport and are trying to take over the universe.

You're right. I'm not human. I'm far more advanced than a mere human. Nice catch.

 

[Quintessence]

You're right. I'm not human. I'm far more advanced than a mere human. Nice catch.

Cool. So you're actually a sophisticated computer program that lives on the internet? Or a cyborg?

Not sure I'd call that "more advanced" exactly as that's a rather subjective judgement rather than something objectively quantifiable, but hey, I can say I've met an alien. Woot!

Also, totally not being serious. I kind of stopped taking this conversation seriously after you said you didn't believe I'm a polytheist (when I am) and when things started getting a tad too preachy.

 

[Sonofason]

Cool. So you're actually a sophisticated computer program that lives on the internet? Or a cyborg?

Not sure I'd call that "more advanced" exactly as that's a rather subjective judgement rather than something objectively quantifiable, but hey, I can say I've met an alien. Woot!

Also, totally not being serious. I kind of stopped taking this conversation seriously after you said you didn't believe I'm a polytheist (when I am) and when things started getting a tad too preachy.

I'm no preacher; I just have my opinions about what God is and what He isn't. And I can see no better forum for stating my opinions as this.

Anyhow, I am curious why you believe there are many gods as opposed to one God. This thread was started to get a sense of the experiences that people are having of God, (surely I can make an exception for your experiences of your gods). I had asked, "What do you think it was that you did which enabled you to experience what you experienced?" And I asked, "What did you do to invoke God's attention?" And it seems the answer so far, in your case, is that you didn't need to do anything except to substitute the word "god" in place of every naturally occurring thing in existence. In fact, it is clear that the fact that your believing in these gods hasn't contributed one iota to your experiences of these gods, as every single person on the planet experiences that which you attribute to "the gods" even though they don't acknowledge those things as gods at all.

So do tell me the benefit you receive from your faith in these gods of yours.

 

[Quintessence]

There are actually some other threads going on right now on RF about why polytheists are polytheists, with perspectives other than simply my own. It might be better to take a look at those and direct those sorts of inquiries there and keep this thread focused on your original intent. The thread that has much of that conversation is this one here. In really simple terms, it follows from the multiplicity of reality that multiple things can be worthy of worship, respect, celebration, and gratitude.

At any rate, you have a fair point in observing that, based upon what I posted previously, I didn't do anything to invoke the gods' attention, but I didn't exactly post a complete picture of what I do in my religion. Kind of hard to do that in one post. There is definitely more to my path - and the paths of other Pagans - than simply experiencing life passively. We can and do call various gods to attend our rituals, and the methods for doing this can be quite elaborate. I basically keep myself open to experiencing various gods in all the ways I can. Sometimes this means paying attention to passive experiences that come my way, sometimes this means deliberately seeking them out or invoking them with things like song and story, candle and incense.

You're also correct in saying that belief is not the issue for me. My religion is not a faith, it is a practice grounded in direct experience. It is true that I see others as experiencing my gods, and that they don't acknowledge them as gods does not bother me. I am not bothered by someone's favorite color being orange instead of green either; it is a similar thing to me.

 

[Sonofason]

I agree wholeheartedly.

I believe that is my experience also and I would add that I did not elicit an experience or expect one, so the experience was completely God's idea. I did expect God to answer me because He had also answered me at age thirteen. At age thirteen I expected God to answer because from my meager understanding of God from the Bible, He was supposed to help people in need.

I believe I felt sure because of the experiences but the thing that made me absolutely sure was when He gave me a prophecy that came true.

When I was in my late 20's, I was living with my grandfather. I was a member in a rock-n-roll band. We put on a show in Philadelphia which was about 60 miles away from my home. Our drummer, who's home was half the distance from my home was to have a B-B-Q the following day. It made sense for me to stay at his place that night. So I did. However, in the morning I woke up feeling very anxious, which very quickly developed into a sense of great urgency, that something was very wrong. I heard a voice, maybe it was my own conscience, I don't know, telling me to "go home". I told my friend I had to leave, and I went home. When I arrived at my house, there were police cars in the driveway and an ambulance. I ran inside, and found my grandfather had had a heart attack. He was in a great deal of pain, and I was able to hold his hand, and to talk with him, and to comfort him.

Within 10 minutes my grandfather lost consciousness, and was taken to the hospital, where he died an hour later.

While I can't be sure that this experience had anything to do with God Himself, I personally believe that God had everything to do with it.

 

[Sonofason]

I always made a huge point of the moments I believed were experiences and avoided trying to get new experiences for fear of failing.

I think I agree with this. I do not recall ever experiencing God as a result of trying to experience God. Experiencing God seems rather to occur when the mind is in the right state to experience God.

 

[Sonofason]

I believe it was post 134.

In post 134 you asked,

So do you believe that god is beyond just the Christian god and that other "versions" of god are also correct such as the three blind men and the Elephant analogy or do you feel that the christian god is the most correct version?

I am a great deal more knowledgeable with regard to the Christian "version" of God. However, I believe there is a great deal of truth to be found in other religions as well. For example, Theravada Buddhist monks and laity believe that enlightenment can be achieved by strictly adhering to the following five precepts:
1. Abstaining from destroying or harming living beings
2. Abstaining from taking what is not given (stealing)
3. Abstaining from sexual misconduct
4. Abstaining from unskillful speech (lies, slander, offensive speech)
5. Abstaining from intoxicating drinks and drugs.

I believe that you will find these precepts to be quite prevalent in Christianity as well. I believe that truth can be found by those who seek it. I believe that truth is oftentimes very obvious, and so it is no wonder that we should find a great deal of common ground in many religions, especially in those religions where truth is sought. If there is a truth that a true God should expect mankind to adhere to, it would have to be a truth that is available for all of mankind to discover, that is of course if this true God is good and just.

We could look into many religions and we will find common ground, and it is my belief that it is on this common ground that we should focus most of our attention. I believe that if it is important to God that we should know something, that God is sufficiently good and fair to enable all of us to know it.

Is it not reasonable that we should love one another?

 

[Sonofason]

Fair enough. You have to depend on your own determination.

The only think I really asked of God was to know the truth.

I believe that the truth is obvious to all of us. If we live the truth, God draws near to us.

 

[Sonofason]

My experiences with what I perceive to be God, (God, as a denomination that I interpret, which I relate to as a word over other similar words), has been like, the feeling of profound openness. A lifting of the spirit -- in my own opinion, an ascension of the mind that corresponds to my belief in telepathic communication -- which I've only felt briefly during rare moments of my life -- one, last night, actually. It was as if the feeling could last forever, the other, (sorry if this is against the rules), I was smoking some tar, and it was as if the gates of Heaven were opened before me, and I could enter, but that I must leave soon. It's... for me, a loss of words. Again, this relates to my belief in telepathic communication, a far superior form of communication than language itself in terms of efficiency and accuracy, although not necessarily beauty.

If God exists, from my perspective, what he is, is a collection of our imaginations, and a representation of ourselves, expressed, as universal deities/beings. It encompasses a wide array of ideas, such as that we have a destiny, or fate, and that we can overcome tragedy, and ascend to godliness -- and immortality. One of man-kinds greatest aspirations. If, not in our physical form, then spiritually. That we can recognize the spirits of the fallen, and the spirits of the past -- spirits, which have existed for an infinite duration, throughout an infinite amount of space, with only a finite amount of matter. It's that absolute confusion in attempting to understand how anything can ever be in any way whatever it has been. Most of all, it's an extreme sense of belonging, and comfort. It's realizing one's purpose, not merely as a vacationer of life, but rather as a spirit that is eternally dedicated to everything that we are and that we have.

My experience last night was more like... with patience, and virtue, I can stay in that place, at some time. It felt like a tangible experience, to hold on to. Yes, it very much relates to the idea of knowing and feeling God. I, myself, am not antagonistic towards the resolution of God, but for stories like Genesis from the Bible, it is apparent to me that such written words are elegantly displayed forms of poetry, and that God must be analyzed from an abstract perspective to get anywhere closer to understanding the true, very complex nature of God.

While it may be true that the stories found in books like Genesis from the Bible are elegant displays and forms of poetry, we ought not dismiss them as simply stories. It is my belief that, whether poetic or not, however abstract, those stories are very likely to be tied to real experiences of real people. And I believe that everyone's experience of God can be of great value to us in analyzing our own experiences of God, however abstract our own particular notion of the complex nature of God might be.

 

[Sonofason]

Oh yes, I would like to say, God has often represented to me, an inevitable prevailing force of goodness.

I perceive that as well.

 

[Sonofason]

I have no problem sharing My religious experience with people -- because my experience has been salvation. I was raised in a Christian home / parents were both believers/ we were in church every Sunday and Wednesday evenings. Youth choirs, summer camps, VBS, etc. People sort of Assumed I was a believer. But in early teen years I wasn't really sure of my salvation. So our pastor challenged everyone in a Sunday evening service -- if a person Wasn't Sure, Make sure, right where you're sitting -- talk to God about your concerns -- confess, repent, accept and thank Him for providing salvation for you Personally. So I Did and it was what I needed to do. No need to 'walk down the aisle' to get saved. Then - after a while-- I realized that I needed to be rebaptized cause the previous year I'd been baptized with some other young people from camp. Some of Them even realized they weren't really saved and then had made sure and They were also being baptized by immersion -- And that also made a difference. Baptism does Not save a person, but it the Outward 'expression' of the decision that has already been made Internally.
The Holy Spirit convicted me of my need for asking Jesus Christ to be my Personal Savior. And Scripture tells us that everyone needs to make that decision for him/her self.

Indeed, our outward expressions of our faith in God, draw God closer to us.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

In post 134 you asked,


I am a great deal more knowledgeable with regard to the Christian "version" of God. However, I believe there is a great deal of truth to be found in other religions as well. For example, Theravada Buddhist monks and laity believe that enlightenment can be achieved by strictly adhering to the following five precepts:
1. Abstaining from destroying or harming living beings
2. Abstaining from taking what is not given (stealing)
3. Abstaining from sexual misconduct
4. Abstaining from unskillful speech (lies, slander, offensive speech)
5. Abstaining from intoxicating drinks and drugs.

I believe that you will find these precepts to be quite prevalent in Christianity as well. I believe that truth can be found by those who seek it. I believe that truth is oftentimes very obvious, and so it is no wonder that we should find a great deal of common ground in many religions, especially in those religions where truth is sought. If there is a truth that a true God should expect mankind to adhere to, it would have to be a truth that is available for all of mankind to discover, that is of course if this true God is good and just.

We could look into many religions and we will find common ground, and it is my belief that it is on this common ground that we should focus most of our attention. I believe that if it is important to God that we should know something, that God is sufficiently good and fair to enable all of us to know it.

Would you imagine "Christianity" to be perfect or imperfect in this regard then?

Is it not reasonable that we should love one another?

I don't know of anyone who would argue against this.

 

[Sonofason]

Would you imagine "Christianity" to be perfect or imperfect in this regard then?

I believe that we are all imperfect.
Christianity is a religion that is practiced by human beings. And human beings are apparently quite imperfect.

However, Christianity is the perfect state of men. Let me explain.

A Christian is not a person who follows some particular set of man made rules. A Christian, by definition, is a person who follows Christ.
I would contend that there actually are no Christians, because there is no person alive who is following Christ. No one is obeying Christ perfectly. If a person were to follow Christ perfectly, that person would indeed be perfect.

I don't know of anyone who would argue against this.

 

[godnotgod]

If everything that stimulates us is perceived in the mind. Why would we not perceive God in our minds?

Because the mind is about perceptual reality, and as such, is a conditioned kind of view. The nature of the divine (I prefer not to use the word 'God') is not of the mind; that is to say, not of perceptual reality, but is the Ultimate Reality, and the Ultimate Reality is Unborn; Unconditioned; Deathless; outside of Space and Time. The mind is in space and time, but it is Pure Consciousness that is before mind, and therefore, is of the divine nature.

That is one problem I see with your view, though you are probably unaware of it, as you are always seeing things from a personal point of view, which is the second problem:

The mind interprets your experience as a personal one, ie; 'MY experience'. It is, therefore, a distortion. The 'I' part of the experience, that is to say, the notion of an experiencer of the experience via mind, must fall away, so that there is only the pure experience itself. This results in the realization of the experience as a purely impersonal one, contrary to what the mind thinks. Now, when I say 'impersonal', I do not mean cold or uncaring. I mean to say that the experience is one that is beyond the confines of the finite, limited mind, which cannot contain the Infinite. IOW, one must simply let go, instead of always focusing on a sense of a personal self having the experience, which continues the illusion of separation from the divine essence, whereas the goal is actually the opposite, of course, of divine union. As the Hindus tells us: 'like dye dissolved in water'. I would like to add that the notion of separation from the divine nature is an illusion; so the spiritual experience is not one of coming together with the divine nature from a state of separation, but rather one of realization that one already is at one with the divine nature, which is precisely what Yeshua told us:

'The Kingdom of God is within you'

There is more to this than you realize, but this is just for starters. The rest of what I have to say about it is just too incomprehensible and incredible to the ordinary mind at this point, but perhaps the gist of what I have said so far is what was the original meaning of 'pearls to swine', purely in the sense that the unenlightened can only respond to messages from the divine nature in ways that have been predetermined by culture and conditioning.

 

[godnotgod]

In post 134 you asked,


I am a great deal more knowledgeable with regard to the Christian "version" of God. However, I believe there is a great deal of truth to be found in other religions as well. For example, Theravada Buddhist monks and laity believe that enlightenment can be achieved by strictly adhering to the following five precepts:
1. Abstaining from destroying or harming living beings
2. Abstaining from taking what is not given (stealing)
3. Abstaining from sexual misconduct
4. Abstaining from unskillful speech (lies, slander, offensive speech)
5. Abstaining from intoxicating drinks and drugs.

I believe that you will find these precepts to be quite prevalent in Christianity as well. I believe that truth can be found by those who seek it. I believe that truth is oftentimes very obvious, and so it is no wonder that we should find a great deal of common ground in many religions, especially in those religions where truth is sought. If there is a truth that a true God should expect mankind to adhere to, it would have to be a truth that is available for all of mankind to discover, that is of course if this true God is good and just.

We could look into many religions and we will find common ground, and it is my belief that it is on this common ground that we should focus most of our attention. I believe that if it is important to God that we should know something, that God is sufficiently good and fair to enable all of us to know it.

Is it not reasonable that we should love one another?

The reason you find some similarities to Theravada, as per your example, is because early Christians, or rather, Nazarenes, were directly influenced by Eastern doctrines. Just for starters, it was the Theravada monks who traveled into Egypt and Greece, establishing their monasteries, and who, as I understand it, then transformed into the Therapeutae, both sects being healing-oriented sects, the former Buddhistic, the latter Essene. There were connections to the Therapeutae from the Order of Nazorean Essenes at Mt. Carmel, just 10 miles away from modern day Nazareth, and it is reputed that Yeshua lived, worked, and taught at Mt. Carmel where he and Joseph and Mary also lived, as Mt. Carmel was a family oriented monastery. It is also reputed that Yeshua traveled East during the 18 or so 'missing years', of which there are virtually zero accounts of his whereabouts from the Christian viewpoint. Now, having said all that, the problem is that the original pure teachings of Yeshua have become corrupted when Rome and St. Paul sought to hunt down the Nazarenes and destroy them and their teachings, overwriting them with those of the mystery religions, such as Mithraism, which infused pagan doctrines such as blood sacrifice, virgin birth, and bodily resurrection, none of which Yeshua taught. The Eastern doctrines of inner divine union did not have the mass appeal for conversion and salvation that the pagan religions did, and Rome wanted something that had this mass appeal, as a means of controlling the people. A convert did not have to know anything; all one need do was to kneel and submit to 'Jesus' as one's personal Lord and Savior. But some of Yeshua's teachings survived the onslaught, and poke through here and there. One example can be found in the words spoken by Yeshua from the cross:

'Father, forgive them,for they know not what they do.'

IOW, Yeshua was not asking forgiveness for their sin, but for their ignorance, and, if you know anything about Buddhism, it is ignorance that is the focus, not sin.

 

[The Hammer]

I am amazed that so many believers that have had "spiritual" experiences won't share their experiences with others. It ought not surprise me however, as I too have had "spiritual" experiences that I just will not share with anyone. I gather that the telling of such experiences puts one at risk of throwing one's pearls to the swine.

My experience of God has actually brought me to a point where I no longer require faith to believe in God. I am absolutely certain of his existence and presence in my life.

So I guess that leaves me with a question for those who have had God experiences. What do you think it was that you did which enabled you to experience what you experienced? What did you do to invoke God's attention?

I agree that not a lot of people share there religious experience's, but I shall share mine. At least a general view of them.

My religion is very Experiential based, what this means is it is seen and felt by doing and acting. Through experience. So I interact with my Gods regularly through various daily activities. Meditation, a walk through the woods, picking up trash from around a tree, the smell of moist soil after a nights rain, and even hearing the booming clap of thunder or the warm caress of the sun.

But the two most profound experiences I have had, was when a Goddess visited me via a crow, and when I later meditated on that Goddess.

While I was sitting in a meeting, I could not concentrate, I was having difficulty staying fully focused, something kept pulling my attention outside. When I finally found what was pulling me, it turned out to be a crow it was sitting on the bush directly out the window behind me. When I looked at this crow, it looked me in the eyes and I felt an immense feeling of being 'known" and comforted at the same time. It was a pure feeling of being loved and respected, it was from this that I started my research and found the Goddess Morrigan.

I was unconvinced by this experience at first, but it kept nagging me at the back of my mind. It was all I could think about for several months, until one day I decided to do something about it. So I set out to meditate on the image of this Goddess, and while doing so a sense of relief and welcoming washed over me, and I knew that she had been calling me all along.

Since then I have had experiences with two other deities/and a tree spirit, but I will not get in to the nitty gritty of those experiences.

As for the question, what did I do to enable me to have that experience? It's really pretty simple. I became wordlessly aware of the divinity that was all around me, I kept my mouth shut and my ears and mind open. I respected the land, and the people around me.

As for the question, what did I do to deserve the attention of the Gods: I am certain they were there all along, just waiting for me to pay attention.

 

[godnotgod]

As for the question, what did I do to enable me to have that experience? It's really pretty simple. I became wordlessly aware of the divinity that was all around me, I kept my mouth shut and my ears and mind open. I respected the land, and the people around me.

As for the question, what did I do to deserve the attention of the Gods: I am certain they were there all along, just waiting for me to pay attention.

The burning question, however, is: who is it that is having the experience, and who is it that is paying attention?

 

[The Hammer]

The burning question, however, is: who is it that is having the experience, and who is it that is paying attention?

While a legitimate question. Although it took me 3 reads to understand it (It is late cut some slack). I would say that in this context I was experiencing the divine, and not the other way around. I cannot speak for the divine, but I can speak for myself. (At least I think that is what you were getting at).

Or not, now that I reread what you wrote, for the 6th time. I was the one having the experience in conjunction with my Gods. And we were paying attention to each other. They spoke, I listened.