Experiencing God

[Sonofason]

If you are still thinking that you are experiencing two different experiences, one of Absolute Good, and the other of Absolute Malevolence, then you are not experiencing God. What you are experiencing is your very own mind, which projects dualistic ideas of Good and Evil onto anthropomorphic images that are embodiments of Super Good in direct opposition to those of Super Evil, all choreographed by yours truly, The Mind. When 'experiencing' God, the Devil is always lurking around somewhere, and when 'experiencing' The Devil, God is somehow always within reach. IT IS ONE EXPERIENCE OF THE MIND ALONG A CONTINUUM FROM ONE EXTREME TO ANOTHER. It only SEEMS as if there are two realities. The Buddha, in his wisdom, recognized this dilemma, and proceeded to formulate his MIddle Path, recognizing that such views are nothing more than extreme views, and therefore, distortions/exaggerations of Reality. This especially was in response to the then current raging arguments between the eternalists, who believed in the atman that survived death, and the materialists, who believed that everything came to an end upon physical death. That argument continues to rage on today, as is evident from the many posts on these forums.

The fact of the matter, is that what you see as God, and what you see as Satan, is nothing more than your very own mind. Once you realize the true nature of mind, these things will fall into place of their own accord, like the churned up mud in a pond eventually settles to the bottom, affording a clear view through and through. Then you can truly have a thoroughly good and hearty laugh and come to your senses.

The answer is not in thinking, but in seeing.

That's when it really starts to get interesting, because now the question is not: 'Does God exist?', but 'Who, or what, is it that is doing the seeing?'

Redundancy isn't going to change my mind.

 

[Sonofason]

Maybe if you stopped making ridiculous claims and acting smug, people wouldn't have to talk down to you. That's really the thing, this kind of self-righteous behavior does no good, especially in a debate where both sides are supposed to present evidence for their claims, yet you and those like you who operate on pure and utterly blind faith have nothing to present so you just feign moral superiority like that's a workable replacement.

You're welcome to your faith but this isn't an echo chamber where everyone is going to tell you how wonderful your beliefs are. This is a debate forum. There are lots of people here who think you are wrong. Everyone has to stand up and present a defense for their positions.

Nope. I don't buy it. No one has to defend their beliefs.

 

[Sonofason]

But see, there you go again. Yes, I agree with you that if there is a god, of any kind, it is absolutely possible for a person to have knowledge that such an entity exists. You claim to have that knowledge though but you are utterly incapable of presenting any means by which you came to that knowledge. You claim to know, you haven't shown that you have any way of actually knowing and that's what I keep challenging you on and you keep sidestepping the question.

It's like someone who says "I just know there are aliens!" Okay, how do they know? They have no answer for that, they "just know". No, they believe and have no clue what knowledge is. You can believe whatever you want, but once you start making claims of knowledge, as you do endlessly, people have every right to ask where your evidence is and how you came by that knowledge and we all know, you have none. You're just disguising blind faith as intellectual certainty when it's nothing of the sort.

Sorry, you're wrong again. If a person says they believe in aliens, and you ask them why they believe in aliens, and they tell you because they've seen them, then you have nothing to argue about. They can't provide the proof that you desire, but they know they have seen an alien. I experience God. I can't show you that experience, just like I can't prove to you that I brushed my teeth this morning, but I do experience God, and I did brush my teeth this morning. And really, all you're doing is calling me a liar. And I'm not really okay with that. But when you make declarations that I'm delusional, or that God is a certain figment of my imagination, I have an issue with it, for you have no good cause to slander anyone when you don't know that what they are telling you is or is not the truth.

You haven't experienced God, and so you have not business saying such things as I'm "disguising blind faith as intellectual certainty when it's nothing of the sort" when it is an absolute fact that I experience God. It is you who have not experienced God, and with the attitude about me and God that you have, you never will experience God, and so you will never have the evidence that you are asking for.

 

[Sonofason]

For a purpose, God can make you certain of Him but at the same time making this "encounter" somehow unexplainable. He made it somehow unexplanable such that you will notice that it may not be proper to talk too much about your encounter. Aliens on the other hand, don't have such a motive. For example, Paul had more than on solid encounters with Jesus and angels. However, he claimed that he fought a good fight of faith. And he seldom talked about his experience of how he acquired his theological knowledge from Christ/God. And he only briefly mentioned about his experience in the third heaven.

Normally God brings you certainty but only to a point where your faith is still demanded. Even Abraham requires faith. The big picture is that humans need faith to be saved. That's why I actually disagree

Moreover, God bringing certainty to a person must serve a unique purpose. From my speculation, His certainty will only be brought to His witnesses with an effect that no matter what His witnesses said, others need faith to believe or to reject what is said. This is actually the whole purpose of His Holy Bible.

In a nutshell, His true witnesses seldom put their encounters into great details. However, if you have an encounter with God, you will at least notice a "protocol" of communication. The following verse will strike your mind while others may not be possibly notice its importance.

Moreover, before God grant you a message, He will make sure that you are able to identify Him (an invisible person) as God Himself. Not His every witness mentioned about this. But again, Paul sets a typical example, Jesus used a lightning to temporarily blind his eyes. It is actually a message for Paul (and most likely Paul only) to figure out (either right away or through out his life) that who was talking to him is a capable supernatural entity for Paul to rule out the possibility that what he encountered is other spirit than Christ/God Himself.


The verse:
Acts 14:3
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.

In a nutshell, this is what I call a time trick for the conveying of unambiguous messages. A prophecy (which is related to a message) can serve the same purpose.

So in a close encounter with God, you will see the following,

1) God will identify Him as God to you (and possibly only you). A supernatural event can be involved for this
2) The certainty will qualify you as a witness of Him. It is thus necessary for a protocol of communication to be learned by you, such that unambiguous messages can be delivered.

After all, your faith will still be preserved to a certain extent. Actually I speculate that the above is so such that your faith will not be completely destroyed.

I believe I agree with this entirely. This post shows great insight into how God reveals Himself to those who draw near to God by faith.

 

[godnotgod]

My dear friend, you don't get to tell me how one experiences God. It's too late. I've already done it without your help. I experience God quite often. And it doesn't require me understanding how that happens. All the nonsense adds nothing to ones ability to experience God.

The prisoners in Plato's Cave experience dancing cave wall shadows that they KNOW represent reality, but in actual Reality, they do not. When told that there is a greater Reality called The Sun, they refuse to listen.

Every winter in the Zen temples around the world, the monks close their doors to the public and go into intensive group meditation called sesshin. This is group meditation, designed to get as many possible over the threshold of the conceptual mind. Because of the powerful energies involved, old images in the subconscious are stirred up, and present themselves as visions called makyo to the students. They are convinced that Jesus, or Buddha, or the Virgin Mary is actually standing right in front of them. They are, in reality, hallucinating. But they cannot be convinced of this. All the teacher can do is to direct them back to their meditation session. Over time, once they advance beyond this stage, they finally see the true nature of their hallucinatory experiences. These incidents are not publicized by the Zen community, unlike the 'visions' people had of the ''resurrected' Jesus, for example. How much less is your experience than those who have had such convincing visions.

If you don't understand the nature of your experience, then you are still in darkness.

THE EGOTISTICAL STATES:

1. APPARENT LOVE OF OTHERS BY PROJECTION OF THE EGO

This is Idolatrous Love, in which the ego is projected onto another
being. The pretention to divinity as 'distinct' has left my organism and is now
fixed onto the organism of the other [ie Jesus, God, etc.]. The affective situation....
is that the "other" has taken my place in
my scale of values. I desire the existence of the other-idol, and am against everything that
is opposed to them. I no longer love my own organism except in so far as it is
the faithful servant of the idol; apart from that I have no further sentiments
towards my organism, I am indifferent to it, and, if necessary, I can give my
life for the safety of my idol (I can sacrifice my organism to my Ego fixed on
the idol; like Empedocles throwing himself down the crater of Etna in order
to immortalise his Ego). As for the rest of the world, I hate it if it is hostile to
my idol; if it is not hostile and if my contemplation of the idol fills me with
joy (that is to say, with egotistical affirmation), I love indiscriminately all the
rest of the world. If the idolised being rejects me to the point of forbidding me
all possession of my Ego in them, the apparent love can be turned to hate.

Zen and the Psychology of Transformation, by Hubert Benoit

 

[godnotgod]

Redundancy isn't going to change my mind.

I'm not trying to change your mind. No one can do that but you. I'm just trying to shed some light on your claims, light that you know nothing about, but about which you are in denial because you cling to what you think you know. We call such clinging 'ignorance'.

Belief clings;
Faith lets go.

 

[Sonofason]

I'm not trying to change your mind. No one can do that but you. I'm just trying to shed some light on your claims, light that you know nothing about, but about which you are in denial because you cling to what you think you know. We call such clinging 'ignorance'.

Belief clings;
Faith lets go.

You do not have the capacity to shed light on my claims. At this point I know for sure that you know nothing about God, and likely never will. I call such persons ignorant.

 

[Sonofason]

The prisoners in Plato's Cave experience dancing cave wall shadows that they KNOW represent reality, but in actual Reality, they do not. When told that there is a greater Reality called The Sun, they refuse to listen.

Every winter in the Zen temples around the world, the monks close their doors to the public and go into intensive group meditation called sesshin. This is group meditation, designed to get as many possible over the threshold of the conceptual mind. Because of the powerful energies involved, old images in the subconscious are stirred up, and present themselves as visions called makyo to the students. They are convinced that Jesus, or Buddha, or the Virgin Mary is actually standing right in front of them. They are, in reality, hallucinating. But they cannot be convinced of this. All the teacher can do is to direct them back to their meditation session. Over time, once they advance beyond this stage, they finally see the true nature of their hallucinatory experiences. These incidents are not publicized by the Zen community, unlike the 'visions' people had of the ''resurrected' Jesus, for example. How much less is your experience than those who have had such convincing visions.

If you don't understand the nature of your experience, then you are still in darkness.

THE EGOTISTICAL STATES:

1. APPARENT LOVE OF OTHERS BY PROJECTION OF THE EGO

This is Idolatrous Love, in which the ego is projected onto another
being. The pretention to divinity as 'distinct' has left my organism and is now
fixed onto the organism of the other [ie Jesus, God, etc.]. The affective situation
resembles that above, with the difference that the other has taken my place in
my scale of values. I desire the existence of the other-idol, and am against everything that
is opposed to them. I no longer love my own organism except in so far as it is
the faithful servant of the idol; apart from that I have no further sentiments
towards my organism, I am indifferent to it, and, if necessary, I can give my
life for the safety of my idol (I can sacrifice my organism to my Ego fixed on
the idol; like Empedocles throwing himself down the crater of Etna in order
to immortalise his Ego). As for the rest of the world, I hate it if it is hostile to
my idol; if it is not hostile and if my contemplation of the idol fills me with
joy (that is to say, with egotistical affirmation), I love indiscriminately all the
rest of the world. If the idolised being rejects me to the point of forbidding me
all possession of my Ego in them, the apparent love can be turned to hate.

Zen and the Psychology of Transformation, by Hubert Benoit

No, no, you've once again got it wrong. If you don't know the nature of my experience, then it is you who are in darkness.

 

[stillsong]

Ok, I had to go read some of your previous points to understand your point of view. I understand and see what it is that you are saying. While I believe that all things are interconnected in a web of life, I don't believe in the universal mind concept. So with that, of course I am experiencing myself, I am also experiencing the divines. And while I do have the spark of Nwyfre in me, so does everything. I am not the essence, in as much as the essence is not me. But we are one.


I agree that sometimes finding the mundane words to put those experiences into are almost always lacking. It's also why I like the term experiential.

It's like you mentioned, a frequency, a communication and feeling on a mental level. This is also why I prefer meditation to work with my Deities, this is the best way to open oneself up to these experiences. And that requires something not a lot of people are willing to invest the time in, which is sitting quietly and just being aware. The state of mind can be fleeting when found, but it is always reassuring when reached in this manner.

MY COMMENT
Experience is the essence of most religions, but it gets covered over with beliefs and procedures. So what it is we are experiencing cannot be discussed in words that adequately describe the experience, but it can be experienced. As more individuals have this experience then more find the common ground that unites us as one people is possible.

Would it really matter to God what we called it? Wouldn't it be sensible that God, or whatever it is that is unknowable and yet experientially perceived, would be thrilled if we spent the time and energy trying to experience what It truly is?

I condemn no religion (why condemn me even if we disagree) but try to find the common ground with all religions. Maybe we can't even express it in words, but when we know it by experience then we have found what unites us together as one.

 

[stillsong]

No, no, you've once again got it wrong. If you don't know the nature of my experience, then it is you who are in darkness.

Why argue over this? Do you really think this leads to resolution?

Why not do as the teachers says

Those who know speak not...

At least it is better than arguing

 

[The Hammer]

MY COMMENT
Experience is the essence of most religions, but it gets covered over with beliefs and procedures. So what it is we are experiencing cannot be discussed in words that adequately describe the experience, but it can be experienced. As more individuals have this experience then more find the common ground that unites us as one people is possible.

Would it really matter to God what we called it? Wouldn't it be sensible that God, or whatever it is that is unknowable and yet experientially perceived, would be thrilled if we spent the time and energy trying to experience what It truly is?

I condemn no religion (why condemn me even if we disagree) but try to find the common ground with all religions. Maybe we can't even express it in words, but when we know it by experience then we have found what unites us together as one.

You talk of god as a singular entity though, and I know that this is not the case. There are more then just "god" there are Gods, and Goddess' so, while I get what you are saying, it negated the fact that not all experience "God" some experience and interact with "Gods".

 

[stillsong]

You do not have the capacity to shed light on my claims. At this point I know for sure that you know nothing about God, and likely never will. I call such persons ignorant.

You talk of god as a singular entity though, and I know that this is not the case. There are more then just "god" there are Gods, and Goddess' so, while I get what you are saying, it negated the fact that not all experience "God" some experience and interact with "Gods".

I am not into a lengthy discussion but I must requote Whitman from your post
"I hear and behold God in every object, yet understand God not in the least."

I don't understand God in the least. I am not sure I believe or disbelieve in God. But what I experience in meditation or prayer or whatever you call it is something beyond the body and the intellect.

It does not matter to me what you call it, but I say let us find common ground and marvel at the wonder of existence.

 

[The Hammer]

I am not into a lengthy discussion but I must requote Whitman from your post
"I hear and behold God in every object, yet understand God not in the least."

I don't understand God in the least. I am not sure I believe or disbelieve in God. But what I experience in meditation or prayer or whatever you call it is something beyond the body and the intellect.

It does not matter to me what you call it, but I say let us find common ground and marvel at the wonder of existence.

While that is all fine and dandy and peachy talk, there will always be a multitude of religious beliefs and God concepts, merely based on the fact that there are a multitude of people on this earth and we all perceive the world just a bit differently then the guy on the bus next to us. So, really, the biggest thing is for people to stop giving a monkey's uncle about what the guy next to him believes, and just believe in what works for him/her (or not, not gunna exclude the atheists and agnostics here).

 

[godnotgod]

You do not have the capacity to shed light on my claims. At this point I know for sure that you know nothing about God, and likely never will. I call such persons ignorant.

I've already shed much light on your claims. Do you honestly think them to be misunderstood by those who are non-Christians? That yours is an exclusive set of experiences? That Christianity is in a class by itself, head and heels above all others, superior by comparison?

So what do you think you know of my capacity? You can only create notions about me, based on your belief system. What you say, based on that belief system, is indicative of your state of mind. I am already familiar with the foundations of the Christian belief system. Yours is nothing new. That tells me everything I need to know.

For instance, I'd be willing to bet that you see Jesus and Satan as polar opposites. Is that the case?

 

[stillsong]

Okay, so we have found some common ground "just believe in what works for him/her"

I would assume from your comment that in the word believe you would also encompass the practice that leads to some kind of religious or spiritual experience.

If that is so we may have found some common ground!

 

[stillsong]

I've already shed much light on your claims. Do you honestly think them to be misunderstood by those who are non-Christians? That yours is an exclusive set of experiences? That Christianity is in a class by itself, head and heels above all others, inferior by comparison?

So what do you think you know of my capacity? You can only create notions about me, based on your belief system. What you say, based on that belief system, is indicative of your state of mind. I am already familiar with the foundations of the Christian belief system. Yours is nothing new. That tells me everything I need to know.

For instance, I'd be willing to bet that you see Jesus and Satan as polar opposites. Is that the case?

In the spirit of finding common ground, I wondered if this would be agreeable to you. This is a post I just put up a minute ago regarding another member's response.

Okay, so we have found some common ground "just believe in what works for him/her"

I would assume from your comment that in the word believe you would also encompass the practice that leads to some kind of religious or spiritual experience.

If that is so we may have found some common ground!

 

[godnotgod]

No, no, you've once again got it wrong. If you don't know the nature of my experience, then it is you who are in darkness.

No, it is you. Do you suppose your experience to be so unique, that it is unnapproachable by others who've perhaps been there, experienced that? I think what you fail to grasp is that there are not two or more Realities, but only one. What creates seemingly different realities are the many varieties of mind-forms. But Reality, or 'God', as you call it, is beyond all forms, all colors, all ideas, about itself. Therefore, if one transcends the multi faceted mind, one comes to a place that is the same everywhere. Assuming clear vision, what you see and what I see are virtually the same Reality. When I come across someone who insists HIS reality is the ONLY TRUE Reality, I know instantly that his is a conditioned and personal view of Reality, and not the genuine article.

You label your 'true reality' as 'Christianity', and everything non-Christian as not-true reality. But what you have unwittingly done is to split reality in two, when actual reality is singular and seamless. That schizoid split is only in your mind, which constantly discriminates between this and that; you and I; good and evil; heaven and hell; etc. where no such divisions actually exist.

 

[godnotgod]

In the spirit of finding common ground, I wondered if this would be agreeable to you. This is a post I just put up a minute ago regarding another member's response.

Okay, so we have found some common ground "just believe in what works for him/her"

I would assume from your comment that in the word believe you would also encompass the practice that leads to some kind of religious or spiritual experience.

If that is so we may have found some common ground!

There is only one true common ground, and that would be the state of no-thought; no-mind; no-doctrine; no-self; where two snowflakes metaphorically dissolve back to their original formless state: water. For humans, that state would be universal consciousness.

I cannot accept that common ground is reflected in the statement: "just believe in what works for him/her" because off we go on our merry way, locked in a self induced trance of our own making, without touching upon the true common ground underlying all views.

"I have my beliefs and you have yours" doesn't cut the mustard.

 

[godnotgod]

You talk of god as a singular entity though, and I know that this is not the case. There are more then just "god" there are Gods, and Goddess' so, while I get what you are saying, it negated the fact that not all experience "God" some experience and interact with "Gods".

How about: "One Light, though the lamps be many" ?

 

[godnotgod]

So, really, the biggest thing is for people to stop giving a monkey's uncle about what the guy next to him believes, and just believe in what works for him/her (or not, not gunna exclude the atheists and agnostics here).

Except when push comes to shove and the believers want to foist their beliefs upon the rest of us as the One True Belief via force, thereby creating more misery and suffering in the world justified in the name of their god, and under the pretense that they're doing it for the good of our souls. That's precisely what the Inquisitors told their victims as they mercilessly tortured them in the name of God to drive out the Devil, never batting a single eyelash nor shedding a single tear. Why, they even claimed that the screams of those burning at the stake was the sound of the demons exiting the victim's bodies to escape the flames.