godnotgod
Thou art That
Perhaps the world itself, including you and I, is none other than the divine nature, playing all the parts of the world simultaneously, while pretending it is not the divine nature.
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Experiencing God
- Thread starter Sonofason
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Perhaps the world itself, including you and I, is none other than the divine nature, playing all the parts of the world simultaneously, while pretending it is not the divine nature.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Luk 8:9-15 (ESVST) 9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ' seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand. ' 11 Now the parable is this:The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Yes, it's called 'Idolatrous Love', one of the Five Egotistical States known as 'Love of others via Projection of the Ego'*.
But that is the experience of the ego. The mystic recognizes this problem, and therefore, transcends the self. IOW, the experience of divine union is not a personal one, but an impersonal one. The authentic spiritual experience is beyond the self. That is sometimes called Universal Consciousness, or Ultimate Reality. Some call it 'God'. But while it is impersonal, that is to say, not born of the ego, it it is the awakening of the true Self. IOW, our true nature is divine. We are That in reality, while creating a concept of an 'other' we call 'God', or whatever.
*THE EGOTISTICAL STATES
1. APPARENT LOVE OF OTHERS BY PROJECTION OF THE EGO
This is idolatrous love, in which the ego is projected onto another
being. The pretention to divinity as 'distinct' has left my organism and is now
fixed onto the organism of the other. The affective situation [is] that the other
has taken my place in my scale of values.
I desire the existence of the other-idol, and am against everything that
is opposed to them. I no longer love my own organism except in so far as it is
the faithful servant of the idol; apart from that I have no further sentiments
towards my organism, I am indifferent to it, and, if necessary, I can give my
life for the safety of my idol (I can sacrifice my organism to my Ego fixed on
the idol; like Empedocles throwing himself down the crater of Etna in order
to immortalise his Ego). As for the rest of the world, I hate it if it is hostile to
my idol; if it is not hostile and if my contemplation of the idol fills me with
joy (that is to say, with egotistical affirmation), I love indiscriminately all the
rest of the world. If the idolised being rejects me to the point of forbidding me
all possession of my Ego in them, the apparent love can be turned to hate.
from: 'Zen and the Psychology of Transformation', by Hubert Benoit
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mystic64
nolonger active
godnotgod
Thou art That
Perhaps not.
You know you have been dreaming via of the act of awakening. Likewise, if this world and existence we call 'reality' is also a dream, awakening to a higher level of consciousness would tell us that.
Otherwise, what tells you that this world and existence is 'real'?
mystic64
nolonger active
This reality is not a dream. It is very real. And when you reach certain levels of understanding, then this reality can be mainipulated as though it were a dream . Now, what makes it real? In order to manipulate physical reality you have to understand the "physics" involved and those physics are unbreakable. As a mystic you reach a point where everything becomes a dream, but when you start to manipulate that dream in a physical sense everything becomes "real" and everything follows the laws of physics both known and unknown. From there as a mystic you can choose to live in an ever expanding dream or you can choose to study the physics of real reality. There are two concepts called the "imminent" and the "transcendental". You can get lost in the "imminent" and still be found, but if you get lost in the "transcendental" you can become lost and not be found. The only way that you can achieve/experience the true higher knowledges/levels of consciousness is to be in both the "Imminent" and the "Transcendental" at the same time. The "Transcendental" is the dream reality that you are talking about and it is only half of the awaking to a higher level of consciousness. And it is also the dangerous half because you can become lost in the world of dreams and never find your way out of it.
godnotgod
Thou art That
So what makes you think this 'material reality' is 'real'?
We used to think Newtonian, and then Einsteinian physics were 'unbreakable'. then came Quantum Physics, which essentially tells us that this 'reality' is only possibility.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Ultimately, the dream and 'real reality' are not different. We now know, via Quantum Physics, that all of the mass of the atom is created via fluctuations in the Quantum and Higgs Fields, rendering all atomic mass as virtual mass. Therefore, all 'real reality', as you put it, is virtual in nature.
Let's be clear: is it the dream that is manipulated, or is it the mind?
Then, who is the manipulator?
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
This sounds like something Sheldon said on an episode of the Big Bang Theory!
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mystic64
nolonger active
I don't know godnotgod
. There are folks out there that are promoting a concept called, "being in the now" and there are folks like you that are promoting the concept of, "it is all a dream (a virtual reality)." And both sides are promoting their concept as an absolute. But the just of the whole thing is that in order to experience and understand the true "Absolute", one needs to be able to experience both concepts at the "same time". The physical (the imminent) is real and and follows "laws". The dream (the transcendental) is not real (physical) and it does not follow any "laws". The true "Absolute", for lack of any other term
, is made up of both the physical and the dream. Which I agree with you doesn't make sense . Until, you step into a "non conceptual workings mind reality." At that point the "Dream" becomes without pictures and the "Now" becomes a mind processing speed (the mind's processor is the thalmus) that is so fast that time seems to stand still. At that point you are experiencing the experience of the "Absoulute"/ the profoundly powerful force with a conscious mind. And over time you will begin to understand the world of the "Abolute" (the profoundly powerful force with a conscious mind). The Buddhists call this breaking the Third Dharma Seal and becoming self realized. With the yogis it can be called self realized or god realized depending how you wish to look at things.Your question, "Is it the dream that is being manipulated, or is it the mind?" Answer, "It can be either way or both." When you enter into the world where the mind and the Dream are at play with each other, you enter a world where you can become extremely lost to never be found. Which is ok except that you become a god that is stuck in the Dream world that "it" created. Stuck forever. So I guess, choose your dream wisely
.djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
2Co 5:6-7 (ESVST) We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Maybe we THINK we are separated from the divine nature, but in reality, that is impossible. It is an error in human judgment that we think so. There has never been, not even for a nano second, any such separation, 'separation' being only an idea in the deluded mind.
Via the article I referenced, did you understand the virtual nature of all material reality?
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
I didn't read the article. I walk by faith, not by sight.
1Co 2:2-5 (ESVST) 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
godnotgod
Thou art That
I have nothing against you walking in faith, but that does not negate the content of the article, which states that what we ordinarily think of as the material world, is not material at all, but virtual in nature. Do you understand? It has nothing to do with 'the wisdom of men', but with how the Quantum world behaves.
Is it not possible to have both faith and sight in complementary union one with the other? That seems to me to be the spirit with which Yeshu spoke.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
I don't know godnotgod
...or to understand that they are nothing more than dualistically based concepts, and that the reality is that there is only one Reality. To realize this is just a dream is to do so via the Absolute, because only the Absolute can show that to you. There is not the Absolute 'over there' and the dream world 'over here'; they are one and the same. There is not the 'material' world here, and the 'spiritual' world there. There is only One World, and this is it.
...and yet, we are finding, much to our chagrin, that both on the micro and the macro scales, something has gone terribly wrong in terms of what we expected to be the case.
The dream (the transcendental) is not real (physical) and it does not follow any "laws". The true "Absolute", for lack of any other term
OK, but in this transformational process, there is no longer observer and observed. The two have merged as one. That is the mystical experience. That is the experience of divine union, in which one realizes one's own divine nature. As the Hindus tell us: 'Tat tvam asi'; ie; 'Thou art That', 'like dye dissolved in water'.
Your question, "Is it the dream that is being manipulated, or is it the mind?" Answer, "It can be either way or both." When you enter into the world where the mind and the Dream are at play with each other, you enter a world where you can become extremely lost to never be found. Which is ok except that you become a god that is stuck in the Dream world that "it" created. Stuck forever. So I guess, choose your dream wisely
No, not forever, only seemingly so. The Absolute within is always subtly promping us to awaken. But the point is to go beyond (ie; to transcend) both mind and dream and to awaken into True Reality, which is beyond this 'material' world, which is but an illusion, a fact now being pointed out by what Quantum Physics has found regarding the virtual nature of mass.
mystic64
nolonger active
Godnotgod, what you said was very well said, in my opinion. Humm? We both agree that only the Absolute can show you. From there it becomes. "How does one achieve a mind state or maybe a state of being where the Absolute can show you?" And, "What is it that this Absolute will/does show you?" Godnotgod, I do understand your concept of the 'material' world being an illusion. So, my question would be, "If the 'material' world is an illusion, then how can you dink with it (directly manipulate the illusion)?" And, "Will/can the Absolute show "you" how this can be done?" Lets face it, if the legends of Christ Jesus are true as one example, then He was successful at manipulating the "illusion". Godnotgod, is the Absolute showing you how to manipulate the illusion?
"It has nothing to do with 'the wisdom of men', but with how the Quantum world behaves." Godnotgod, "How does the Quantum world behave?" Because if the Quantum world is not real (is illusion), then it doesn't behave. It just is. The problem is that if all is a dream, then the Absolute is a dream also and you end up with a dream creating a dream. From there it becomes, "What dream do you wish to experience?" Because you are just a dream created by a dream and learning how to create you own dream. If the Absolute is not just a dream dreaming itself (and you), then the Absolute has to have some physical qualities. And these physical qualities have to obey some sort of physical laws. What theoretical physics is discovering is that what we exsist in is just a part of a multiverse and that those things that are outside of our part of this multiverse are things that we not only can't measure, but are also things that create the physics of our part of the multiverse. The problem with deciding that everything is an illusion is that the Absolute becomes an illusion also and from there "you" become a dream creating a dream. Or "you" are a dream that has been created by a dream.
Godnotgod, you seem to be an idividual that has established a rapport with the Absolute, so to make a long story short, "What is the Absolute showing you? And as a result of this information/understanding how good are you getting with the manipulation of the "illusion"? Godnotgod you are promoting a concept that you may wish others to follow, "How is that concept changing your life and maybe the lives of those around you because you can "manipulate" and/or "excape" the illusion?"
godnotgod
Thou art That
Whoa! Very honest questions, but let me begin by saying that, the reason I originally asked 'who is the manipulator?' is because there is none. 'The manipulator' is an illusion because the self is an illusion.
mystic64
nolonger active
Ok
. "But let me begin by saying that," That would seem to indicate that there is more to come ? And I agree with self being an illusion. I have established a rapport with the Absolute (at least I claim to have ) and basically what I am attemepting to do here is to compare notes with you as one who has also extablished a rapport with the Absolute. My approach may seem to be confontational, but it actually is not meant to be. I am learning how to manipulate the "illusion" should I choose to. But the Absolute has been at this stuff way longer than I have and because of that I am inclined to go along with "Its" will. And to be honest with you, things seem to go way better than they do if I attempt to mess with things. But you are right, because any attempt to mess with things that are against the "will" of the Absolute is the result of the ignorance/illusion of "self". But when the Absolute wishes I can play with things in interesting ways and this ability has absolutely nothing to do with "self".
godnotgod
Thou art That
Well, I don't know what your particular motives are in your attempt to access The Absolute; I can only tell you how I see it, which is that the ultimate goal is the greatest happiness, or Absolute Joy, that one can attain to. Most of us live and function on this Third Level of Consciousness, otherwise known as Identification, in which we experience the dualities of relative joy and relative suffering. These are conditional and temporal states. So once a certain point in our awareness develops, joy and sorrow become a study to us, and what then interests us is an absolute state of pure joy that has no opposite, one transcendent of all dualities; of all 'coming and going'.
In general, there exist several ways to achieve a quietude of the mind, what the yogi Patanjali called 'the cessation of all of the activities of the mind'. This is yoga, or divine union with The Absolute. The problem is that all efforts of the self to achieve this only make matters more complicated. The process is likened to simply allowing the churned up mud in the pond to settle on its own so that one can then see clear to the bottom. So the keyword here is non-attachment to any thought as 'my' thought, which plunges us right back into the state of Identification. What we are trying to do is to attain clear vision.
"Can you keep the unquiet physical-soul from straying,
Hold fast to the Unity, and never quit it?
Can you, when concentrating your breath,
Make it soft like that of a little child?
Can you wipe and cleanse your vision of the Mystery till all is without blur?"
Tao te Ching, Chapter 10
http://terebess.hu/english/tao/waley.html#Kap10
The discursive mind is always trying to grasp at something; to add to its body of knowledge, thinking that it will attain a knowing of some truth. The awakened mind is letting go, rather than grasping, at what it seeks to know. This is about seeing, rather than conceptualizing, about the true nature of Reality.
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