Experiencing God

[godnotgod]

I believe in that case you are not talking about consciousness in itself but the spirit which has consciousness. Although the spirit precedes the mind when it is joined with the body it encounters the consciousness of the mind of the body.

That is very convoluted. Why do you make a distinction between consciousness and spirit? There is no spirit which 'has' consciousness, any more than there is an IT that is raining.

I do not believe the self creates anything if one is talking about the physical self. The spiritual self is capable of creating but with a lack of memory of it, most people do not know this or they might never have learned it.

What I mean is that the notion of 'self' is created of itself, which is mind, which is an illusion. Only consciousness is real, though mind emerges from it. Over a long period of time, I have verified this process by careful observation as to the moment it occurs. It is unmistakable.

I believe the conscious spirit is always awake but the mind is not always aware of it.

OK. The discursive mind is sometimes referred to as 'monkey mind', since it is always jumping around, grasping onto this idea or that. It is a noise machine, and drowns out the quiet voice of pure consciousness, or 'spirit', if you will.

I believe that is a nice hope but in reality it can be just as self deceived and confused about things as the mind itself. When one considers that the spirit also likes to fantasize then one can't rely on the spirit for reality.

When one experiences a true awakening, one sees the difference between reality and fantasy. That is what is called 'Enlightenment. Enlightenment is the dissipation of all delusion. It is the seeing into and direct experience of Reality itself. That is why it can be called 'Enlightenment'.

 

[Muffled]

That is very convoluted. Why do you make a distinction between consciousness and spirit? There is no spirit which 'has' consciousness, any more than there is an IT that is raining.

I do not believe the self creates anything if one is talking about the physical self. The spiritual self is capable of creating but with a lack of memory of it, most people do not know this or they might never have learned it.

What I mean is that the notion of 'self' is created of itself, which is mind, which is an illusion. Only consciousness is real, though mind emerges from it. Over a long period of time, I have verified this process by careful observation as to the moment it occurs. It is unmistakable.

I believe the conscious spirit is always awake but the mind is not always aware of it.

OK. The discursive mind is sometimes referred to as 'monkey mind', since it is always jumping around, grasping onto this idea or that. It is a noise machine, and drowns out the quiet voice of pure consciousness, or 'spirit', if you will.

I believe that is a nice hope but in reality it can be just as self deceived and confused about things as the mind itself. When one considers that the spirit also likes to fantasize then one can't rely on the spirit for reality.

When one experiences a true awakening, one sees the difference between reality and fantasy. That is what is called 'Enlightenment. Enlightenment is the dissipation of all delusion. It is the seeing into and direct experience of Reality itself. That is why it can be called 'Enlightenment'.

I believe you are in error. A spirit is a conscious being by definition.

I believe this is erroneous. The mind is quite creative.

I believe you are mistaking the consciousness of the Spirit as the creator of mind but it is not although it can manage a level of control at times. Psychology recognizes the two selves calling them the ego and the superego.

I believe that may be but it is not going to happen automatically by allowing the spirit to work.

 

[godnotgod]

I believe you are in error. A spirit is a conscious being by definition.

That is not the same thing as saying that 'a spirit has consciousness'. A spirit cannot exist without being conscious. To say that a spirit is a conscious being is essentially to say that spirit and consciousness are one and the same. But that goes for human life as well; what we are in essence is consciousness, through and through. Only the mind makes the false distinction between 'material' and 'non-material', relegating consciousness to one and not to the other.

It's sort of like saying: 'a tree is made of wood''; a tree is not 'made of wood'; it IS wood.

 

[Muffled]

That is not the same thing as saying that 'a spirit has consciousness'. A spirit cannot exist without being conscious. To say that a spirit is a conscious being is essentially to say that spirit and consciousness are one and the same. But that goes for human life as well; what we are in essence is consciousness, through and through. Only the mind makes the false distinction between 'material' and 'non-material', relegating consciousness to one and not to the other.

It's sort of like saying: 'a tree is made of wood''; a tree is not 'made of wood'; it IS wood.

According to the Bible the soul can sleep which is a relinquishing of consciousness.

I do not believe so because I believe the mind is also conscious so consciousness does not just exist in spirit alone.

I believe consciousness is one element of humanity but I don't know if it is the essence. A person in a coma is still considered human. A dead body is still considered human but it does lack life.

I believe my mind recognizes that consciousness comes both from the material and non-material.

 

[Jedster]

Its funny, this also applies to the near death experience, most see what their beliefs or culture dictates, a Christian will see Jesus, a Hindu may see Krishna.

I have a friend who is a Christian, he loves Jesus. He is also an eclectic in that he had experiences involving Krishna and Bahá'u'lláh. In particular Krishna appeared to him in his home and Bahá'u'lláh in a dream (or vision,not sure).
He see no contradiction to his Christianity

 

[psychoslice]

I have a friend who is a Christian, he loves Jesus. He is also an eclectic in that he had experiences involving Krishna and Bahá'u'lláh. In particular Krishna appeared to him in his home and Bahá'u'lláh in a dream (or vision,not sure).
He see no contradiction to his Christianity

Well he is certainly on his own there, which is good, and also a healthy way to be, its also funny how our visions of whatever god-man is what we see from a picture that is very well known.

 

[Milton Platt]

I have a friend who is a Christian, he loves Jesus. He is also an eclectic in that he had experiences involving Krishna and Bahá'u'lláh. In particular Krishna appeared to him in his home and Bahá'u'lláh in a dream (or vision,not sure).
He see no contradiction to his Christianity

Even when his Christian god explicitly says to have no other gods???

 

[Jedster]

Even when his Christian god explicitly says to have no other gods???

He doesn't see it as other gods. He sees it all as one.

 

[Milton Platt]

He doesn't see it as other gods. He sees it all as one.

Even though they have different names and different scriptures which contradict each other? He's just playing a mind game.

 

[Jedster]

Even though they have different names and different scriptures which contradict each other? He's just playing a mind game.

There are plenty of people that read more than one scripture,even with the apparent contradictions. That's because they believe they already have their experience of Truth/God. They enjoy reading what others have written.
They probably just stay with the bits that ring true to them.

 

[Milton Platt]

There are plenty of people that read more than one scripture,even with the apparent contradictions. That's because they believe they already have their experience of Truth/God. They enjoy reading what others have written.
They probably just stay with the bits that ring true to them.

So, sort of a buffet style religion. But then he could not be a Christian, according to most any other Christian I have ever talked to. I was just trying to figure out how he determines what is true and what is not in each book and further, if some things are not true, then how do you know any of it is true? It is certainly his right to believe whatever he wants...all religious people do. But he seems to not be on very sound footing. Just wondering. Thanks for your feedback.

 

[godnotgod]

According to the Bible the soul can sleep which is a relinquishing of consciousness.

Even in sleep there is consciousness. Were it not so, one could not then awaken from sleep. The two levels of conscious awareness in sleep are Sleep without Dreams and then Sleep with Dreams. The third level is Waking Sleep, our ordinary state of conscious awareness, in which we are still not truly awakened. Only upon entering the fourth level of conscious awareness, that of Self-Transcendence, is awakening initiated.

During sleep, there is respiration, digestion, brain activity, and pulmonary activity. These could not occur were it not for consciousness. A total lack of consciousness would be the death of the body. Consciousness itself cannot die, simply because it is Unborn.

I do not believe so because I believe the mind is also conscious so consciousness does not just exist in spirit alone.

There is no such thing as a mind that is conscious; the mind is just a form of consciousness.

Where do you see a distinction between spirit and consciousness?

I believe consciousness is one element of humanity but I don't know if it is the essence. A person in a coma is still considered human. A dead body is still considered human but it does lack life.

You see, you are looking at the question as: 'humans have consciousness', rather than 'consciousness is manifesting itself as human, (and as the entire universe).' In the latter sense, when the body 'dies', consciousness remains as it always is. It is the Uncaused, Unborn, Unconditioned.

A 'dead' body is not dead; It is actively being consumed by macrophages and other bacteria. Every bit of it is alive. We, the living, in turn, feed on 'dead' biological matter. Essentially, 'life' and 'death' are illusions. But that can only be seen by a consciousness transcendent of a dual view.

I believe my mind recognizes that consciousness comes both from the material and non-material.

These distinctions are no longer valid, according to the latest findings in Quantum Physics. For example, we now know that all of the mass of the atom is created by fluctuations in both the Quantum and Higgs Fields, rendering all 'matter' to be virtual in nature.

What you see as 'matter' and 'non-matter' are simply two aspects of the same singular Reality. IOW, you are still seeing via the dual mind, which is responsible for creating such arbitrary distinctions in the first place. It does this as a way of trying to 'make sense' of a Reality it does not really understand.

It is for this reason that it is said that 'the mind is a self-created principle.'

 

[YmirGF]

Even though they have different names and different scriptures which contradict each other? He's just playing a mind game.

Confirmation bias probably irons out any wrinkles.

 

[Jedster]

So, sort of a buffet style religion. But then he could not be a Christian, according to most any other Christian I have ever talked to. I was just trying to figure out how he determines what is true and what is not in each book and further, if some things are not true, then how do you know any of it is true? It is certainly his right to believe whatever he wants...all religious people do. But he seems to not be on very sound footing. Just wondering. Thanks for your feedback.

So, sort of a buffet style religion. Yes, although I've never heard it put that way.

But then he could not be a Christian, according to most any other Christian I have ever talked to. Well, I have never met a person more passionate about his love for Jesus. Also bear in mind there are over 300000 different sects in Christianity many of whom do not recognise each other. My friend is certainly non-denominational. However, he believes that God manifests in lots of ways and so is accepting of other believers.
We have spent hours discussing other scriptures other than the so-called Abrahamic writings.

I was just trying to figure out how he determines what is true and what is not in each book and further, if some things are not true, then how do you know any of it is true?
He doesn't believe that the books are perfect, nor does he look to them as to what he believes.
I have shown him loads of contradictions within and between scriptures. He just says , "Well a person wrote them"

But he seems to not be on very sound footing. Just wondering
To him, it is how he interprets his own living experience, which to me is better than going to a book to tell you what to believe.

Having said all this, I am not him. I am going to invite him to join here.
I think he would love it here.

 

[Milton Platt]

So, sort of a buffet style religion. Yes, although I've never heard it put that way.

But then he could not be a Christian, according to most any other Christian I have ever talked to. Well, I have never met a person more passionate about his love for Jesus. Also bear in mind there are over 300000 different sects in Christianity many of whom do not recognise each other. My friend is certainly non-denominational. However, he believes that God manifests in lots of ways and so is accepting of other believers.
We have spent hours discussing other scriptures other than the so-called Abrahamic writings.



I was just trying to figure out how he determines what is true and what is not in each book and further, if some things are not true, then how do you know any of it is true?
He doesn't believe that the books are perfect, nor does he look to them as to what he believes.
I have shown him loads of contradictions within and between scriptures. He just says , "Well a person wrote them"

But he seems to not be on very sound footing. Just wondering
To him, it is how he interprets his own living experience, which to me is better than going to a book to tell you what to believe

It sounds more like a philosophy of life than a religion

Having said all this, I am not him. I am going to invite him to join here.
I think he would love it here.

Perhaps. But he will get beat up quite a bit from time to time by both atheists who do not think belief in the supernatural is supported by the evidence and by some that belong to other religious belief systems. It is fun, but is not a place for those with thin skin. He should read for awhile before he jumps in.

 

[Jedster]

I have just spoken him and will be seeing him later.
I will show him the thread and get a response from him.
Later.

 

[Muffled]

Even in sleep there is consciousness. Were it not so, one could not then awaken from sleep. The two levels of conscious awareness in sleep are Sleep without Dreams and then Sleep with Dreams. The third level is Waking Sleep, our ordinary state of conscious awareness, in which we are still not truly awakened. Only upon entering the fourth level of conscious awareness, that of Self-Transcendence, is awakening initiated.

During sleep, there is respiration, digestion, brain activity, and pulmonary activity. These could not occur were it not for consciousness. A total lack of consciousness would be the death of the body. Consciousness itself cannot die, simply because it is Unborn.



There is no such thing as a mind that is conscious; the mind is just a form of consciousness.

Where do you see a distinction between spirit and consciousness?

You see, you are looking at the question as: 'humans have consciousness', rather than 'consciousness is manifesting itself as human, (and as the entire universe).' In the latter sense, when the body 'dies', consciousness remains as it always is. It is the Uncaused, Unborn, Unconditioned.

A 'dead' body is not dead; It is actively being consumed by macrophages and other bacteria. Every bit of it is alive. We, the living, in turn, feed on 'dead' biological matter. Essentially, 'life' and 'death' are illusions. But that can only be seen by a consciousness transcendent of a dual view.

These distinctions are no longer valid, according to the latest findings in Quantum Physics. For example, we now know that all of the mass of the atom is created by fluctuations in both the Quantum and Higgs Fields, rendering all 'matter' to be virtual in nature.

What you see as 'matter' and 'non-matter' are simply two aspects of the same singular Reality. IOW, you are still seeing via the dual mind, which is responsible for creating such arbitrary distinctions in the first place. It does this as a way of trying to 'make sense' of a Reality it does not really understand.

It is for this reason that it is said that 'the mind is a self-created principle.'

I believe the sleep of a living human being does not have to be the same thing as the sleep of a spirit.

I believe it still has to go through the mind or we would not be aware of it.

I believe there is an area of the brain that is not conscious that controls bodily functions. That is why a person in a coma doesn't die.

I believe this sentence is too confusing to be understood so say it differently.

I believe the mind is conscious and it is not spirit.

I believe there is no evidence to support this view.

I do not believe the mind is dual but singular. Granted the mind shares its consciousness with the spirit but the spirit is not part of the mind.

I believe there is no evidence that it is arbitrary.

I believe this concept is totally suppositional.

 

[Muffled]

Well he is certainly on his own there, which is good, and also a healthy way to be, its also funny how our visions of whatever god-man is what we see from a picture that is very well known.

I believe visions can come from God but I also believe that the fantasies of the spirit can masquerade as visions. There has to be more information to help determine which is which.

 

[Muffled]

Well he is certainly on his own there, which is good, and also a healthy way to be, its also funny how our visions of whatever god-man is what we see from a picture that is very well known.

I believe that is not so strange. If it is God providing the vision then He is capable of providing that which a person can relate. My vision of God was of an old man sitting on a throne in a Greek Temple. This does not fit into my pre-conceived notions of God but I certainly can relate to it.

 

[Milton Platt]

I have just spoken him and will be seeing him later.
I will show him the thread and get a response from him.
Later.

The more the merrier. I am an atheist and so am met with a lot of beligerent behavior at times because I question beliefs and many people think religion should be exempt from criticism for some reason. I try to maintain the high ground by not becoming emotional and attacking the person rather than the idea. Some cannot separate the two. Granted, it is difficult at times.

Your friend should take the same road. It leads to more productive dialog.