Experiencing God

[Blastcat]

Now you use erroneous logic.

The discovery of the Higgs Field is not proof that reality is virtual. The proof is the discovery that fluctuations in both the Quantum and the Higgs Fields create all of the mass of the atom is the proof, and that mass is not real, but virtual.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16095-its-confirmed-matter-is-merely-vacuum-fluctuations/

That doesn't mean that REALITY is virtual like in some "Matrix" movie.

 

[Blastcat]

What possible form do YOU imagine it has? I never said that it has form. In fact, I said it is formless.

You are playing with words.

No, we are not talking about a 'spiritual thingy'; there are no 'things' in the spiritual experience.

Again, playing with words.

You see, I was merely mouthing the doctrine as it is believed by some, and not necessarily that I do so. Understand?

Sure, you like to waste people's time pretending what other people MIGHT possibly believe.

I couldn't care less about your fantasies.

It has nothing to do with anything 'deep'. It has to do with what is right under your nose. You DO have a nose, yes?

Oh, I know you aren't saying any deep. That's all TOO obvious.

Your pretentiousness, however IS very noticeable.

Tell me something: how is it that you know the difference between delusion and reality?

I don't know if I'm in a Matrix movie. Your question is meaningless.

One clue is if a lot of people call you delusional, you MIGHT be. Another clue is if you find yourself saying things that you can't possibly demonstrate are TRUE in any way at all.


I'd think about it if I were you.

You read about a mountain in a book, never having been there. Then you go to the actual mountain and experience 'mountain' first-hand. Is there a difference between these two? Do you 'campeche' the difference between the meal and the menu? Or do you continue to eat the menu? If you want to experience the meal, you've got to put the menu aside.


THE DESCRIPTION IS NOT THE DESCRIBED!

You're trying to tell me that? You believe that EVEN the menu isn’t real.

It’s all a dream.


You don’t think ANYTHING is real.

You 'First there is a mountain;

then there is no mountain;

then, there is'

A silly song lyric isn’t evidence for your silly ideas.

(Who is this 'we' that 'campeches'? Are you trying to make yourself appear larger than you really are? )

No, I'm not at all delusional.


'

We', again? There are several of you? Or just one with multiple personalities?

You have problem with the English language. That doesn't surprise me.

I am not interested in proving anything to anyone.

WE have noticed.

Just go see for yourself, or do you not trust your own mind? If you still insist that what I have said is nonsense, then I invite you to show me how you can experience sound without silence. You can't, so you won't.

I don't care about you silly ideas.

Your arrogance isn't charming.

I'm going to give you a golden opportunity to learn to use your own mind here. So stop your mental chatter and just try to SEE, without thought, what is in place before words and thoughts. Now ask yourself: who, or what, is it that is looking, without naming it? If you can answer that, you will become instantly enlightened.


See how simple? Why, even a caveman can do it!

You are very arrogant and have very silly ideas.

 

[godnotgod]

That doesn't mean that REALITY is virtual like in some "Matrix" movie.

Now who's using analogy to signify reality?

I did not say anything akin to 'Matrix', nor implied it.

So how did the article I referenced end? It said this:

"[Along with the Quantum Field] The Higgs field is also thought to make a small contribution, giving mass to individual quarks as well as to electrons and some other particles. The Higgs field creates mass out of the quantum vacuum too, in the form of virtual Higgs bosons. So if the LHC confirms that the Higgs exists, it will mean all reality is virtual."

Gross, material 'reality' has no real mass to it; it is VIRTUAL mass, 100%, according to Quantum Mechanics. IOW, what you call 'material' reality is neither. It is an ILLUSION. The only thing that is real is your consciousness.

Even though the revolutionary findings of Quantum Physics are now several decades old, most people still cannot accept them as fact. They still continue to cling to the old materialist paradigm, never having a clue as to the huge implications of the Quantum view.

 

[godnotgod]

You are playing with words.

What is it about 'formless' that you cannot understand?

Again, playing with words.

There are no 'things' in the Universe; all such 'things' are completely connected with one another. 'Things' are just ideas in your head.

Sure, you like to waste people's time pretending what other people MIGHT possibly believe.

I couldn't care less about your fantasies.

Guess I am way over your head here. Look, the doctrine in question is a Christian doctrine, you see? I was raised a Christian. I KNOW what the doctrine, as stated, means. I am a student of religions, as well as a Zen Buddhist in particular, and so can also see and understand the doctrine of one religion in light of another religion. The statement in question here, about which you are going off the deep end and know nothing about, is this:

"The 'Father' is the Creator, the source of all that is; the background of existence against which all things exist."

So stop grasping at straws just to make yourself look credible, which you are not.

Oh, I know you aren't saying any deep. That's all TOO obvious.

Your pretentiousness, however IS very noticeable.

How is pointing to what is right under your nose being pretentious? The problem is that you just refuse to look and put your conceptual mind aside for a moment.

I don't know if I'm in a Matrix movie. Your question is meaningless.

One clue is if a lot of people call you delusional, you MIGHT be. Another clue is if you find yourself saying things that you can't possibly demonstrate are TRUE in any way at all.


I'd think about it if I were you.

My question came up simply because you originally referred to delusion, as if you knew the difference between delusion and reality. Here is your original statement:

"Wow, you SURE know what Jesus means, don't you?
I have to wonder how it is you GOT that deep into the delusion, godnotgod."

So my question remains: how is it that you know the difference between delusion and reality. If you cannot answer, just say so. It's OK.

And yes, I DO know what Jesus (Yeshua) meant, but YOU don't, which is obvious.

You're trying to tell me that? You believe that EVEN the menu isn’t real.

It’s all a dream.


You don’t think ANYTHING is real.

Yes, you really think you know the difference between the description of reality and reality itself, because you've been indoctrinated to think so, but you don't even realize it.

You haven't been paying attention again, catman. I said only consciousness is real several times. Are you blind, or do you just choose to ignore what I am trying to tell you?

A silly song lyric isn’t evidence for your silly ideas.

It's silly to you because you don't have the vision yet to see what it actually means, and perhaps you may never have the vision, choosing instead to remain on the low level of understanding that you dwell on, thinking yourself to be quite clever, demanding evidence about things for which you haven't a clue about. Get it through your head: the spiritual experience is not subject to Analysis, Logic, or Reason as means of providing proof of its validity, because the spiritual experience is beyond these approaches. That is why the mystic goes beyond them in his quest. The spiritual experience cannot be encapsulated via concept or idea or mere fact.

The lyrics you are referring to are trying to convey an idea beyond that of the thinking mind. This idea is about SEEING into the nature of things, rather than conceptualizing about them. And so first, there is the mountain, as defined by the mind; then there is no mountain as one then sees that one was interpreting mountain in terms of its definition; then, finally, there remains only mountain, as it actually is, without words, without thoughts.

Try, catman, try. I know you can make a breakthrough if you just try.

No, I'm not at all delusional.

That's what the madman said, quite rationally.

You have problem with the English language. That doesn't surprise me.

Excuse me? YOU are the one continually referring to yourself as 'We', not I. So how many of you are there? Oh, I know. You're just puffing yourself up to look formidable to make up for your lack of substance and depth. That's OK. It's a common tactic of those who have no real meat to offer, and who can only resort to jeering.

WE have noticed.

Look here, I'm not trying to win a popularity contest. I am only interested in pointing to the moon, but so far, you choose to attack my pointing finger instead of looking at the moon. Would you like to see the moon? There is no cost, other than the loss of your notions about what the moon actually is, or whether it even exists.

I don't see any throng of protesters that can be referred to as 'we' who object to what I am saying. You want to make it appear that I am in the minority, don't you? Well, that does not bother me, because most people on the planet are caught in the throes of delusion and suffering, and only a few can see clearly what the true nature of that delusion and suffering actually is. And so, all we can do is to continue to point, hoping that there might be an occasional glance at the moon.

I don't care about you silly ideas.

Your arrogance isn't charming.

Oh, I see. You want me to provide evidence on demand, but when I point out the way to show something to you so you can see it for yourself, you resort to pouting and diversion. OK. I will give you another chance to make good:

Now, use your head, OK?

Show me how sound can exist without silence.

(If you just continue to dismiss my question as 'silly', I will have to conclude that you simply don't know what you're talking about.)

You are very arrogant and have very silly ideas.

What's wrong? Are you unable to stop your mental chatter just for a few moments so you can see what I am talking about? Maybe you just need to go to your room. Return when you have something meaningful to contribute, instead of just calling other people's arguments 'silly', which is a sign that you have nothing of substance to say.

 

[Blastcat]

Now who's using analogy to signify reality?

You are.

I did not say anything akin to 'Matrix', nor implied it.

You don't understand your own analogy, or it’s implications.

"[Along with the Quantum Field] The Higgs field is also thought to make a small contribution, giving mass to individual quarks as well as to electrons and some other particles. The Higgs field creates mass out of the quantum vacuum too, in the form of virtual Higgs bosons. So if the LHC confirms that the Higgs exists,it will mean all reality is virtual."

No it doesn't mean that at all.

Gross, material 'reality' has no real mass to it; it is VIRTUAL mass, 100%, according to Quantum Mechanics. IOW, what you call 'material' reality is neither. It is an ILLUSION. The only thing that is real is your consciousness.

I’m sure that you enjoy your delusion.

Even though the revolutionary findings of Quantum Physics are now several decades old, most people still cannot accept them as fact. They still continue to cling to the old materialist paradigm, never having a clue as to the huge implications of the Quantum view.

You don't understand Quantum Physics.

 

[Blastcat]

What is it about 'formless' that you cannot understand?

It’s meaningless babble. You didn’t explain at all what you mean by the term. NOBODY can understand you if you don’t explain yourself using reason.

There are no 'things' in the Universe; all such 'things' are completely connected with one another. 'Things' are just ideas in your head.

This fits in with your delusion that are just IDEAS in your head.

Guess I am way over your head here. Look, the doctrine in question is a Christian doctrine, you see? I was raised a Christian

That doesn’t make nutty ideas any more true.

So stop grasping at straws just to make yourself look credible, which you are not.

I’m not the one pretending to know what reality is and isn’t by saying that it isn’t REAL in the first place.

But pretending can be fun.
I get that.

How is pointing to what is right under your nose being pretentious? The problem is that you just refuse to look and put your conceptual mind aside for a moment.

Yeah, I refuse to leave REASON aside even for a moment in a REASONED debate. You don’t seem to have ANY problems leaving your “conceptual mind” aside. So, go ahead, talk to us about your CONCEPTS. Apparently, you CAN’T. So I don’t know what it IS you are trying to ACCOMPLISH here.

You can’t hope to CONVINCE anyone by REASON.. if you have ABANDONED reason, in any case. Your position is about as ridiculous as you can MAKE IT. Bravo for that. It’s a kind of an accomplishment. Only way is UP now...

My question came up simply because you originally referred to delusion, as if you knew the difference between delusion and reality. Here is your original statement:

"Wow, you SURE know what Jesus means, don't you?
I have to wonder how it is you GOT that deep into the delusion, godnotgod."

So my question remains: how is it that you know the difference between delusion and reality. If you cannot answer, just say so. It's OK.

I have no problems admitting to ignorance. But when it comes to definitions for WORDS, I do have the INTERNET, so that’s trivially easy:

Delusion: A false personal belief that is not subject to reason or contradictory evidence and is not explained by a person's usual cultural and religious concepts (so that, for example, it is not an article of faith). A delusion may be firmly maintained in the face of incontrovertible evidence that it is false. Delusions are a frequent feature of schizophrenia.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26290

When someone makes wild claims about ALL OF REALITY, and can’t back them up with any EVIDENCE or the evidence isn’t RELEVANT or just plain FALSE, and will NOT change his ideas until such evidence is FOUND, that’s a delusion.

You suffer from one. You have all the typical symptoms.
Good luck with that.

If your symptoms get worse, I would suggest seeking professional help.

And yes, I DO know what Jesus (Yeshua) meant, but YOU don't, which is obvious.

You pretend to have more understanding than most other people, again, a symptom of a delusion.

In REALITY, you don’t actually KNOW what I know or don’t know. But you seem quite happy to PRETEND, and then have the incredible temerity to TELL ME.

Confronted by such nonsense, I really do have trouble taking you seriously. I am aware that people don’t take their ideas seriously, so maybe you aren’t as delusional as your ideas make you SOUND. I don’t know who you are.. I can only judge you by what you write. I have to tell you that... I have my concerns.

Yes, you really think you know the difference between the description of reality and reality itself, because you've been indoctrinated to think so, but you don't even realize it.

I fully understand how words work. Metaphors aren’t what they describe.

You are the one who doesn’t seem to be able to tell the difference between a DESCRIPTION and what is DESCRIBED. There are many possible reasons for your inability, but I can’t diagnose them for you.

I think you are too deep into your delusion right now to even WANT to get out.

I’m afraid you will stay in it for a while.
I hope you get better soon.

 

[Blastcat]

You haven't been paying attention again, catman. I said only consciousness is real several times. Are you blind, or do you just choose to ignore what I am trying to tell you?

You are responding to BLASTCAT, not “catman”. I’m not the one who is being a little bit BLIND here, my friend. At least I get your NICKNAME right.

You can keep repeating your delusion all you like, it’s not going to make it any more true or real. And in case you really haven’t NOTICED, I am NOT ignoring you, I am paying your ideas a LOT of ATTENTION.

It's silly to you because you don't have the vision yet to see what it actually means, and perhaps you may never have the vision, choosing instead to remain on the low level of understanding that you dwell on, thinking yourself to be quite clever, demanding evidence about things for which you haven't a clue about.

NOBODY but yourself RELIES on your “vision” to tell them what is real. So YOUR VISION isn’t going to help ANYONE but yourself. You are under the spell of your delusion.

If I were you, I would at least TRY to question it, and see if any of our objections make any SENSE in any way. Right now, you seem to have CLOSED YOURSELF OFF from any objections, and that’s SYMPTOMATIC of delusional thinking.

Get it through your head: the spiritual experience is not subject to Analysis, Logic, or Reason as means of providing proof of its validity, because the spiritual experience is beyond these approaches. That is why the mystic goes beyond them in his quest. The spiritual experience cannot be encapsulated via concept or idea or mere fact.

And YET, you try to CONVEY this idea by way of analysis, logic, reason. This idea of yours is completely SELF-CONTRADICTORY.
In other words, you simply DO NOT make any sense.

If that’s ok with you, fine. I don’t THINK, however, that you will sway too many people who DO think critically about ideas. You are in love with your idea. I get it.

You are quite passionate.

The lyrics you are referring to are trying to convey an idea beyond that of the thinking mind.

Then it’s NOT THINKING, is it?
Maybe it’s feeling, maybe it’s... fantasy, maybe its POETRY, but it’s not RATIONAL, so don’t PRETEND that you are being rational in ANY WAY.

You just aren’t.
You are as IRRATIONAL as you can be.

And that kind of irrational thinking is symptomatic of DELUSION.

This idea is about SEEING into the nature of things, rather than conceptualizing about them.

I have no doubt that you delude yourself that you are SEEING what others can’t SEE. But you ARE trying to “conceptualize” here.. and failing at it miserably.

Time to wake up.
You have been dreaming.

And so first, there is the mountain, as defined by the mind; then there is no mountain as one then sees that one was interpreting mountain in terms of its definition; then, finally, there remains only mountain, as it actually is, without words, without thoughts.

I’ve written poetry for about 45 years. I think I have a grasp of how that works, thanks.

Try, catman, try. I know you can make a breakthrough if you just try.

Now, you try arrogance again. It failed the first times, it won’t work this time, either.
You do NOT know what I have or have NOT tried, don’t delude yourself about that, too. You are in quite deep enough as it is.

And it’s Blastcat.
You ask ME to pay attention.
I would kindly ask you to AT LEAST pay enough attention to what I BOTHER to write to you to get my NICK NAME right.

But in your unreal reality.. who knows?
Maybe my nickname IS "catman" there.

That's what the madman said, quite rationally.

That’s just a ridiculous statement.

You are trying to be poetical, and that’s fine. I throw away lines like that as meaningless and so I try to avoid them when I write poetry, myself. I like that my poems make SENSE, but flow beautifully. Some people don’t like their poetry to make much sense... Your statement above is an example of a sentence that although SEEMS to convey meaning, actually doesn’t. At least, not by itself. That statement would need a HUGE amount of further clarification to make any sense. Right now, it’s a self-contradiction that just doesn’t. You are quite literally babbling.

When young infants babble, we think they are cute. We expect them to stop by the time they reach puberty. Somehow, babbling isn’t as cute to us after that. The fastest way to get yourself ignored is to BABBLE at people.

But people forgive and will appreciate an honest effort to think well, even if we fail.
I know I do.

Digging yourself deeper isn’t going to help you with that.

Babble away if you really insist. Maybe this is one of those “life lessons” we all have to learn the hard way.
Arrogance supported by nonsense is a bad idea.

 

[Blastcat]

Excuse me? YOU are the one continually referring to yourself as 'We', not I.

I don’t refer to myself as “we”. You don’t seem to fully understand how certain English words work. In any case, that’s now how I use the word here. I don’t use the royal “we” to refer to myself, unless in JEST.

And I can assure you, that most of what I write that doesn’t end in a smilie face ISN’T in jest.
I have given you an English lesson that is at the 5th grade level, but not more. It appears that your English comprehension is below that level.

So how many of you are there? Oh, I know. You're just puffing yourself up to look formidable to make up for your lack of substance and depth. That's OK. It's a common tactic of those who have no real meat to offer, and who can only resort to jeering.

You don’t understand some quite basic English usage.
There are MANY people who read these pages. The “we” I refer to are the people who read your silliness and aren’t taken in by your delusions.

Most people don’t struggle with the concept of “reality” quite as much as you seem to. These “most” people include myself. We are many.
Exclude yourself all you want from this group.

Look here, I'm not trying to win a popularity contest.

This forum isn't a popularity contest, so don’t worry. I’m just evaluating your ideas, not your person.
Your ideas seem to be the product of a delusion.

Now that you have payed attention to the sellers of "woo", I hope that you continue your efforts to educate yourself. Deepak et al aren't doing you any favors, I'm afraid.

I am only interested in pointing to the moon, but so far, you choose to attack my pointing finger instead of looking at the moon. Would you like to see the moon? There is no cost, other than the loss of your notions about what the moon actually is, or whether it even exists.

I can quite EASILY see the REAL moon, we are DISCUSSING nutty ideas that AREN'T real.

I don't see any throng of protesters that can be referred to as 'we' who object to what I am saying.

If you keep telling yourself things like that, you will keep your delusion strong.

You want to make it appear that I am in the minority, don't you?

You aren’t the only one with delusions.
But we don’t judge reality by popularity. So, minority or NOT, it doesn’t matter.

Your ideas stand or fall on their own.

Well, that does not bother me, because most people on the planet are caught in the throes of delusion and suffering, and only a few can see clearly what the true nature of that delusion and suffering actually is.

Thinking that we know some secret knowledge is a symptom of delusion. That’s quite obvious even to the most casual observer.

And so, all we can do is to continue to point, hoping that there might be an occasional glance at the moon.

NOBODY has a problem with the MOON other than yourself, here. You imagine that it’s not REAL. You are actually POINTING AT your delusion. Your metaphorical “moon” is a delusion.

And yes, we don’t all share your delusional thinking.

Oh, I see. You want me to provide evidence on demand, but when I point out the way to show something to you so you can see it for yourself, you resort to pouting and diversion. OK. I will give you another chance to make good:

Now, use your head, OK?

I can assure you that I don’t have any problems USING CONCEPTUAL THINKING, or using my "head". I try to STAY rational, I don't abandon reason.

If you are going try to use analysis, logic and reason to explain something that you SAY can’t be approached that way, you just manage to CONTRADICT yourself.

Show me how sound can exist without silence.

Silence is the ABSENCE of sound.
You mistake what IS for what IS NOT.
But they are not the same.

You have problems with how words are used.
You imagine that the “argument from ignorance” is a good one.

Such problems are sometimes symptomatic of a mental disorder.
Others don’t suffer from your delusion. Sorry.

(If you just continue to dismiss my question as 'silly', I will have to conclude that you simply don't know what you're talking about.)

You are free to make your own conclusions.

What's wrong? Are you unable to stop your mental chatter just for a few moments so you can see what I am talking about?

I have no difficulty understanding REASON. I don’t understand your babbling because your reasoning isn't valid. Your position is self-contradictory.
You quite literally do NOT make SENSE.

Maybe you just need to go to your room. Return when you have something meaningful to contribute, instead of just calling other people's arguments 'silly', which is a sign that you have nothing of substance to say.

I don’t have much in the way of substance to say other than you don’t make logical sense, you aren’t being rational, you can’t “encapsulate” your theory with any “concept or idea or mere fact.” You don’t seem to use language very well, and your conclusions don’t follow from your premises NOR are they accepted as normal by most people on the planet.

My friend, I don’t have much to tell you OTHER than you might want to reconsider your position. Right know, you sound delusional.

What is it about 'formless' that you cannot understand?

It’s meaningless babble. You didn’t explain at all what you mean by the term. NOBODY can understand you if you don’t explain yourself using reason.

There are no 'things' in the Universe; all such 'things' are completely connected with one another. 'Things' are just ideas in your head.

This fits in with your delusion that are just IDEAS in your head.

Guess I am way over your head here. Look, the doctrine in question is a Christian doctrine, you see? I was raised a Christian

That doesn’t make nutty ideas any more true.

So stop grasping at straws just to make yourself look credible, which you are not.

I’m not the one pretending to know what reality is and isn’t by saying that it isn’t REAL in the first place.
But pretending can be fun.

I get that.

How is pointing to what is right under your nose being pretentious? The problem is that you just refuse to look and put your conceptual mind aside for a moment.

Yeah, I refuse to leave REASON aside even for a moment in a REASONED debate. You don’t seem to have ANY problems leaving your “conceptual mind” aside. So, go ahead, talk to us about your CONCEPTS. Apparently, you CAN’T. So I don’t know what it IS you are trying to ACCOMPLISH here.

You can’t hope to CONVINCE anyone by REASON.. if you have ABANDONED reason, in any case. Your position is about as ridiculous as you can MAKE IT. Bravo for that. It’s a kind of an accomplishment. Only way is UP now...

My question came up simply because you originally referred to delusion, as if you knew the difference between delusion and reality. Here is your original statement:

"Wow, you SURE know what Jesus means, don't you?
I have to wonder how it is you GOT that deep into the delusion, godnotgod."

So my question remains: how is it that you know the difference between delusion and reality. If you cannot answer, just say so. It's OK.

I have no problems admitting to ignorance. But when it comes to definitions for WORDS, I do have the INTERNET, so that’s trivially easy:

Delusion: A false personal belief that is not subject to reason or contradictory evidence and is not explained by a person's usual cultural and religious concepts (so that, for example, it is not an article of faith). A delusion may be firmly maintained in the face of incontrovertible evidence that it is false. Delusions are a frequent feature of schizophrenia.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26290

When someone makes wild claims about ALL OF REALITY, and can’t back them up with any EVIDENCE or the evidence isn’t RELEVANT or just plain FALSE, and will NOT change his ideas until such evidence is FOUND, that’s a delusion.

You suffer from one. You have all the typical symptoms.
Good luck with that.

If your symptoms get worse, I would suggest seeking professional help.

And yes, I DO know what Jesus (Yeshua) meant, but YOU don't, which is obvious.

You pretend to have more understanding than most other people, again, a symptom of a delusion.
In REALITY, you don’t actually KNOW what I know or don’t know. But you seem quite happy to PRETEND, and then have the incredible temerity to TELL ME.

Confronted by such nonsense, I really do have trouble taking you seriously. I am aware that people don’t take their ideas seriously, so maybe you aren’t as delusional as your ideas make you SOUND. I don’t know who you are.. I can only judge you by what you write.

I have to tell you that... I have my concerns.

 

[godnotgod]

You are.

I never denied that. But then you used analogy after accusing me of using it as an erroneous method. No, analogy is not that which it points to; that is why it is called 'analogy', meaning 'similar to'.

You don't understand your own analogy, or it’s implications.

You are making crap up. The Matrix has nothing to do with what I am saying.

No it doesn't mean that at all.

I quote the conclusion of the New Scientist article once again:

"[Along with the Quantum Field] The Higgs field is also thought to make a small contribution, giving mass to individual quarks as well as to electrons and some other particles. The Higgs field creates mass out of the quantum vacuum too, in the form of virtual Higgs bosons. So if the LHC confirms that the Higgs exists, it will mean all reality is virtual."

I guess you know more than the author or the researchers of this experiment. Let's just cut to the chase here, and show me the actual atomic material that exists.

I’m sure that you enjoy your delusion."

Consciousness is a delusion? How so?

You don't understand Quantum Physics.

All that anyone need 'understand' about what Quantum Physics is saying is that this so-called 'material' world is nothing than pure potential, rather than actuality. Quantum Physics cannot be explained in terms of the materialist paradigm. Anyone who does, does not understand Quantum Physics.

"Nobel Prize winning physicists have proven beyond doubt that the physical world is one large sea of energy that flashes into and out of being in milliseconds, over and over again.


Nothing is solid. This is the world of Quantum Physics.http://www.wakingtimes.com/2012/06/26/quantum-researchers-able-to-stop-and-restart-light/


They have proven that thoughts are what put together and hold together this ever-changing energy field into the ‘objects’ that we see."

http://themindunleashed.org/2013/10/quantum-reality-limitless-potential.html

The New Scientist article I previously posted confirms this view.

Now, having said this, what you DON'T know is what the nature of that 'energy field' actually is, because you will continue to attempt to 'explain' it in terms of Reason, Logic, and Analysis, when it is beyond these methods.

 

[godnotgod]

It’s meaningless babble. You didn’t explain at all what you mean by the term. NOBODY can understand you if you don’t explain yourself using reason.

It's simple and self-explanatory: 'formless' means 'without form'.

This fits in with your delusion that are just IDEAS in your head.

Are you denying that what you call 'things' are interconnected with everything else in the Universe?

That doesn’t make nutty ideas any more true.

I never said that what I quoted was true or not true. You're not getting it. I was merely mouthing what Christians believe as true, for purposes of illustration.

I’m not the one pretending to know what reality is and isn’t by saying that it isn’t REAL in the first place.

I'm not pretending to anything. I know what Reality is, and what I am telling you is that this so-called 'material' world, which you have been fooled into believing to be 'real', is an illusion created by the Pure Consciousness that exists behind it. How do I know this? Because that same Pure Consciousness that manifests itself as the material world is what is manifesting itself as me.

Think about this:

You see the hedge against the hills;
you see the hills against the sky;
but you see the sky against CONSCIOUSNESS!

But pretending can be fun.
I get that.

It can be so much fun that you soon lose sight of the fact that it is a pretension, thinking the illusion to be the real thing, just as you think the material world is real. Only by awakening will you see clearly the illusory quality of this 'material' dream-world.

Yeah, I refuse to leave REASON aside even for a moment in a REASONED debate. You don’t seem to have ANY problems leaving your “conceptual mind” aside. So, go ahead, talk to us about your CONCEPTS. Apparently, you CAN’T. So I don’t know what it IS you are trying to ACCOMPLISH here.

You can’t hope to CONVINCE anyone by REASON.. if you have ABANDONED reason, in any case. Your position is about as ridiculous as you can MAKE IT. Bravo for that. It’s a kind of an accomplishment. Only way is UP now...

You're not paying attention, AGAIN, catman! Listen carefully now: Concept and Reason are the products of THOUGHT. Nothing I have been pointing to is the result of thought or the mind. It is beyond thinking or the machinations of mind, which is only consciousness, without thought or mind. Mind thinks and conceptualizes; consciousness only SEES, without thought. What I am trying to accomplish here is to simply to point to what is, rather than what you only THINK is.

TBC

 

[godnotgod]

Silence is the ABSENCE of sound.
You mistake what IS for what IS NOT.
But they are not the same.

You have problems with how words are used.
You imagine that the “argument from ignorance” is a good one.

Such problems are sometimes symptomatic of a mental disorder.
Others don’t suffer from your delusion. Sorry.

I did not ask you what silence is; I said:

"Show me how sound can exist without silence."

I never said that silence and sound are the same. I said that "sound cannot exist without silence."

Now who is the one who not only has a problem with words, but with understanding what is being said. If anyone has a mental disorder, it is YOU, as I just proved your misunderstanding. But you don't actually misunderstand; you just read into what I say with your own ideas, ignoring what I actually DO say.

SO: can you show me how sound can exist without silence, or do you not understand the question?

BTW, silence is NOT the absence of sound; silence requires no sound in order to be what it is, but sound does require silence in order to be heard as sound. Silence is what is in place before all sound, is in place during sound, and is present after sound subsides. When you listen to various notes of a musical composition, you understand them as notes because of the intervals of silence between them. Were there no silent invervals, you would have only notes, which would be continuous sound (ie; 'noise'), rendering your composition meaningless as a musical piece.

 

[godnotgod]

Yeah, I refuse to leave REASON aside even for a moment in a REASONED debate. You don’t seem to have ANY problems leaving your “conceptual mind” aside. So, go ahead, talk to us about your CONCEPTS. Apparently, you CAN’T. So I don’t know what it IS you are trying to ACCOMPLISH here.

You can’t hope to CONVINCE anyone by REASON.. if you have ABANDONED reason, in any case. Your position is about as ridiculous as you can MAKE IT. Bravo for that. It’s a kind of an accomplishment. Only way is UP now...

By the setting aside of Reason, I am not saying that Reason is useless; it has it's use, but only a limited one. Logic, Reason, and Analysis are useful for determining factual knowledge and making predictions, as in science. But the true nature of Reality itself cannot be understood via Reason, as it lies beyond Reason. The approach of Reason is dissection, the idea being that nature is composed of 'parts', and by dissecting nature into it's component 'parts', the whole can finally be understood. That may be true for a machine, but the Universe is not a machine. Sure, you can use Reason to determine certain behavioral characteristics ABOUT nature, and then based on those facts, make predictions about future behavior. But facts are not Reality itself; they are surface information ABOUT Reality. Reality has no concepts, and conceptual thinking cannot encapsulate Reality. Only the non-conceptual mind can see clearly into the true nature of Reality. I use Reason because that is the method most people use in trying to get a handle on Reality. But Reason fails at some point and creates paradox. Why? Because nature is paradoxical to the rational mind, as the rational mind is attempting to 'figure it out' when there is nothing to figure out. In reality, there is no paradox. And that is why Reason, as useful as it is in our daily lives for mostly utilitarian purposes, must be set aside if we are going to cut to the heart of the matter when it comes to the true nature of things.

I have no problems admitting to ignorance. But when it comes to definitions for WORDS, I do have the INTERNET, so that’s trivially easy:

Delusion: A false personal belief that is not subject to reason or contradictory evidence and is not explained by a person's usual cultural and religious concepts (so that, for example, it is not an article of faith). A delusion may be firmly maintained in the face of incontrovertible evidence that it is false. Delusions are a frequent feature of schizophrenia.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26290

When someone makes wild claims about ALL OF REALITY, and can’t back them up with any EVIDENCE or the evidence isn’t RELEVANT or just plain FALSE, and will NOT change his ideas until such evidence is FOUND, that’s a delusion.

I did not ask you for a definition of delusion; I asked you how it is you know what delusion is, that is to say, via what faculty do you recognize delusion for what it is?

What I am saying to you is that the true nature of Reality is the same everywhere. IOW, it is a Universal Principle. The Hindu way of saying this is that "the saltiness of the sea is everywhere". Therefore, you and I being outcroppings of the Universe, we are made of the same consciousness. In that respect, I don't know anything more than you do about the nature of things, except for the fact that you have not yet awakened from the dream you think is reality.

[/QUOTE]You pretend to have more understanding than most other people, again, a symptom of a delusion.

In REALITY, you don’t actually KNOW what I know or don’t know. But you seem quite happy to PRETEND, and then have the incredible temerity to TELL ME.
[/QUOTE]

I have never claimed to have special knowledge. In fact, I have told you several times now, that I don't know anything more than you, except that you refuse to put your conceptual mind, which Reality is not about, aside, so you can see without coloration, into the true nature of things. When I say that I understand what Yeshu is saying, it does not require special knowledge; it only requires that your mind be clear of your own concepts and ideas about what is real. I don't know what you know regarding details and facts; but I know everything you can know regarding the nature of things, as you can of me, and that is because the true nature of things is Universal, and being Universal, is impersonal. The problem with your approach is that you think you can interpret Reality in terms of factual knowledge, when the opposite is true: that factual knowledge can only properly be understood in terms of Reality itself. This is a common mistake in human thought, which places the cart incorrectly ahead of the horse.

Yes, I do have the temerity to tell you, because you have a cocksure but false 'understanding' of things, reinforced by the rational mind. Bottom line is that you will NEVER gain a true understanding as to the nature of Reality via Reason, Logic, or Analysis, simply because all of these are methods of DISSECTION, and when you dissect something, it is dead, as in 'dead knowledge'. All such knowledge is dead because it is a product of the dead past. Facts are merely traces of the dead past, put together to form an image of reality, but this image is false because reality is a moving, living activity, that can only be properly understood in the living present.

 

[godnotgod]

I don’t refer to myself as “we”. You don’t seem to fully understand how certain English words work. In any case, that’s now how I use the word here. I don’t use the royal “we” to refer to myself, unless in JEST.

And I can assure you, that most of what I write that doesn’t end in a smilie face ISN’T in jest.
I have given you an English lesson that is at the 5th grade level, but not more. It appears that your English comprehension is below that level.

You don’t understand some quite basic English usage.
There are MANY people who read these pages. The “we” I refer to are the people who read your silliness and aren’t taken in by your delusions.

You are making crap up. Where are all those others who 'read my silliness and aren't taken in by my delusions'? There is no such 'we' except the one in your mind that you have made up, and that is what delusion is.

Most people don’t struggle with the concept of “reality” quite as much as you seem to. These “most” people include myself. We are many.
Exclude yourself all you want from this group.

'Most people', including yourself, think this 'material' world represents 'reality'. Because they act upon that idea, they get into trouble; hence the general misery of the world, ie; war, greed, hatred, etc. Most people in this world are driven by 3 things, many times in combination: Security, Power, and Sensation, all addictions, and the cause of their suffering.

This forum isn't a popularity contest, so don’t worry. I’m just evaluating your ideas, not your person.
Your ideas seem to be the product of a delusion.

Now that you have payed attention to the sellers of "woo", I hope that you continue your efforts to educate yourself. Deepak et al aren't doing you any favors, I'm afraid.

You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. Deepak is a giant compared to you in terms of intellectual prowess.

I can quite EASILY see the REAL moon, we are DISCUSSING nutty ideas that AREN'T real.

Not only do you have a problem with words and understanding ideas as they are presented to you, which I have now proven several times, you do not have a very well-developed intuitive understanding either. 'The moon', as I have used the phrase, is a metaphor for Reality. Zen defines itself as 'a finger pointing to the moon, but is not itself the moon'. I keep pointing to the moon, but you rabidly and predictably continue to attack the pointing finger instead of looking to see the moon. But that's OK. No one likes it when someone comes along and tells them that what they have comfortably believed for years is bunk. They refuse to look at the moon, choosing instead to attack the messenger and his pointing finger. And yes, I am telling you outright that your materialist paradigm is bunk! Get off that sinking vessel!

If you keep telling yourself things like that, you will keep your delusion strong.

You aren’t the only one with delusions.
But we don’t judge reality by popularity. So, minority or NOT, it doesn’t matter.

Your ideas stand or fall on their own.

You continue to hide behind this 'we' for security, in a childish attempt to make it appear as if I am not in the majority, when there is no such group.

Thinking that we know some secret knowledge is a symptom of delusion. That’s quite obvious even to the most casual observer.

Your observation is without merit, since I have already told you several times that I have no special knowledge.

NOBODY has a problem with the MOON other than yourself, here. You imagine that it’s not REAL. You are actually POINTING AT your delusion. Your metaphorical “moon” is a delusion.

And yes, we don’t all share your delusional thinking.

So now you deny that Reality exists by saying that the metaphor for Reality is delusional?

I can assure you that I don’t have any problems USING CONCEPTUAL THINKING, or using my "head". I try to STAY rational, I don't abandon reason.

If you are going try to use analysis, logic and reason to explain something that you SAY can’t be approached that way, you just manage to CONTRADICT yourself.

I use these methods to point to something other than what they are commonly used for. I use them because they are the methods most ordinary people are indoctrinated to use, but who do not yet understand that there is another kind of knowledge beyond what these methods bring.

As long as you cling to conceptual thinking, you will never get a glimpse into the true nature of things, because conceptual thinking is the menu, and not the meal.

You are free to make your own conclusions.

I have: you don't know what you're talking about!

I have no difficulty understanding REASON. I don’t understand your babbling because your reasoning isn't valid. Your position is self-contradictory.
You quite literally do NOT make SENSE.

Ah, but you DO have difficulty, as already demonstrated several times. I do not make sense because Reason cannot figure out nature, and that creates paradox, where no such paradox exists to begin with.

I don’t have much in the way of substance to say other than you don’t make logical sense, you aren’t being rational, you can’t “encapsulate” your theory with any “concept or idea or mere fact.” You don’t seem to use language very well, and your conclusions don’t follow from your premises NOR are they accepted as normal by most people on the planet.

My friend, I don’t have much to tell you OTHER than you might want to reconsider your position. Right know, you sound delusional.

It’s meaningless babble. You didn’t explain at all what you mean by the term. NOBODY can understand you if you don’t explain yourself using reason.

Pointing to the moon does not require Reason; it requires that you look. Looking to see is not meaningless babble. The babble is just in your own head, and that is delusional. Stop the babble for a few moments and see, rather than conceptualize about what you see. Is that so difficult to do?

 

[godnotgod]

Delusion: A false personal belief that is not subject to reason......*snip*...

That cannot include my position, since what I have been referring to all along, and to which you choose to consistently ignore, is that there is no such 'belief' in the seeing into the true nature of Reality, as belief requires thought, and seeing is without thought.

Sorry, but your online amateurish psycho-analysis has now been completely debunked. Besides, trying to label me as delusional without a true understanding of what you're talking about in a cheap attempt at discrediting me, while making yourself appear credible, when you're obviously not, just doesn't work.

What might work is for you to actually address the content of some of my posts, but alas, I doubt if you have the intellectual fortitude to even know what I am saying to you, as you go round and round in your little box of 'Reason' you think so infallible, a box built by Reason itself. How convenient! Ha ha ha! What a joke!

 

[godnotgod]

I have given you an English lesson that is at the 5th grade level, but not more. It appears that your English comprehension is below that level.

So sorry, but I am a poor student when it comes to 'taking lessons' from an egotistic fool, and soon drop out of such classes out of sheer boredom. Yawn...

 

[godnotgod]

You're trying to tell me that? You believe that EVEN the menu isn’t real.

It isn't. It's a fabrication about reality, based upon the 5 faulty senses, propping itself up as the sole authority, while 'looking through a glass darkly'.

 

[godnotgod]

The Problem with Reason:

"We create a certain theory and then there is the honeymoon with the theory. For a few years things go perfectly well. Then reality asserts itself. Reality brings up a few things and the theory gets into difficulty because we had excluded a few facts. Those facts will protest, they will sabotage your theory, they will assert themselves. In the eighteenth century science was absolutely certain, now it is certain no more. Now a new theory has come: the theory of uncertainty.

Just a hundred and fifty years ago Immanuel Kant came across this fact in Germany. He said that reason is very limited; it sees only a certain part of reality and starts believing 'that this is the whole. This has been the trouble. Sooner or later we discover further realities and the old whole is in conflict with the new vision. Immanuel Kant attempted to show that there were ineluctable limits to reason, that reason is very limited. But nobody seems to have heard, nobody has cared about Immanuel Kant. Nobody cares much about philosophers.

But science in this century has at last caught up with Kant. Now Heinsenberg, in physics, and Godel, in mathematics, have shown ineluctable limits to human reason. They open up to us a glimpse of a nature which is irrational and paradoxical to the very core*. Whatsoever we have been saying about nature has all gone wrong. All principles go wrong because nature is not synonymous with reason, nature is bigger than reason.

And Zen is not a philosophy; Zen is a mirror, it is a reflection of that which is. As it is, Zen stays the same. It does not bring any man-made philosophy into it, it has no choice, it does not add, it does not delete. That's why Zen is paradoxical -- because life is paradoxical. You just see and you will understand."

Osho

http://thegreatmysticlibrary.com/reader/reader.php?author=osho&endpos=198003&page=91&book=Zen - The Path of Paradox, Vol 1

*And now Quantum Physics has overturned the applecart of Newtonian Physics.

 

[Blastcat]

You are making crap up. Where are all those others who 'read my silliness and aren't taken in by my delusions'? There is no such 'we' except the one in your mind that you have made up, and that is what delusion is.

There are other people in here.

Not all of them are taken in by your delusions.

'Most people', including yourself, think this 'material' world represents 'reality'. Because they act upon that idea, they get into trouble; hence the general misery of the world, ie; war, greed, hatred, etc. Most people in this world are driven by 3 things, many times in combination: Security, Power, and Sensation, all addictions, and the cause of their suffering.

You confuse money for reality.

You confuse basic needs with "addiction".

You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. Deepak is a giant compared to you in terms of intellectual prowess.

Deepak does has a following.

He sells woo for a living.

Not only do you have a problem with words and understanding ideas as they are presented to you, which I have now proven several times, you do not have a very well-developed intuitive understanding either. 'The moon', as I have used the phrase, is a metaphor for Reality.

The only person I have noticed having trouble with the moon metaphor is yourself.

So now you deny that Reality exists by saying that the metaphor for Reality is delusional?

No.

I use these methods to point to something other than what they are commonly used for. I use them because they are the methods most ordinary people are indoctrinated to use, but who do not yet understand that there is another kind of knowledge beyond what these methods bring.

You think of yourself as an extraordinary person.

I am not so impressed.

As long as you cling to conceptual thinking, you will never get a glimpse into the true nature of things, because conceptual thinking is the menu, and not the meal.

This is a delusion. You imagine that you have special knowledge of the “true nature or things”.

I have: you don't know what you're talking about!

You delude yourself that you have special knowledge.

Ah, but you DO have difficulty, as already demonstrated several times. I do not make sense because Reason cannot figure out nature, and that creates paradox, where no such paradox exists to begin with.

You delude yourself that you have special knowledge and you admit that you don’t make sense.

I noticed that from the very beginning.


You don’t make sense, and yet, expect to be taken seriously, as if you did.

Pointing to the moon does not require Reason; it requires that you look. Looking to see is not meaningless babble. The babble is just in your own head, and that is delusional. Stop the babble for a few moments and see, rather than conceptualize about what you see. Is that so difficult to do?

You are being, quite literally, by your own admission, unreasonable.

 

[Blastcat]

So sorry, but I am a poor student when it comes to 'taking lessons' from an egotistic fool, and soon drop out of such classes out of sheer boredom. Yawn...

Your ad hominem is noted.

 

[Blastcat]

It isn't. It's a fabrication about reality, based upon the 5 faulty senses, propping itself up as the sole authority, while 'looking through a glass darkly'.

Words are descriptions of what we think about. Nobody is misunderstanding how language works in this thread but yourself.
You might have trouble with the concept of reality, and how language works, but others don't.

The REST OF US.. this "we" I refer to, don't.
You seem to want to confuse us too.

That's not working.