Explain this logically christians....

[waitasec]

My friend, the way you conduct a conversation reminds me of the way Pee-Wee Herman conducted the investigation when His bike was stolen. In every instance all He did was leave people wishing they never had to try to make sense out of what he was saying. The way you use buckets of steam and reels of flight line in a mostly useless response to some one else’s argument is extraordinary in its mind numbing ability. Homonyms? Without homonyms, paragraph twisting, putting words in people’s mouthes, not to mention grand assumptions at nearly every turn, you would have nothing to say.

please...by all means show me what you mean.

 

[Evandr]

Don't sound that simple. The "decision" to take the family to test a man's faith? And what if that man goes into depression and totally loses everything and becomes homeless yet doesn't turn to god? But wait he already knows this so he "wastes" 3 perfectly good lives for entertainment?

There is a difference between taking something and letting something play out.

Lol, pain and suffering NEVER cease when one loses a loved one to a tragedy. Dying of old age or illness in one thing, but because of another callous act........different feelings there.

Wrong again. Pain and suffering will diminish over time but not the memory of that which was good nor the soft pangs of loss, but these are good things. If you have not the ability to overcome trial and let our Heavenly Father heal the wounds then your plight is a sad one indeed.

According to your opinion. Just because you don't want to question it because you fear reprecussion, doesn't mean people like myself who use common knowledge to logically try to understand why this "god" is so callous and narcissistic, have to agree.

We don't have to agree on anything (and yes, I do fear the repercussions of foolishness); that is the beauty of free agency; I have my opinion and you have yours. Another area where we differ greatly is that I have my experiences and you have yours. My experiences tell me that you are off track and headed for an eternal dead end. I understand that you can say the same of me but that leaves one of us to be wrong.

Lol, he's done a crappy job of the commandments he gives and needs an updated version.

Well, all I have to say is it’s a good thing for all mankind that such decisions are not yours to make. I believe that the saddest part is is that in some distant part of God's eternal plan for His children you could become one responsible for making such decisions; that is, according to my understanding of course, if you would only prove yourself worthy to gain such knowledge and wisdom while in mortality.

Thomas Jefferson was non religious as well as Thomas Paine.

OK then, let's add it up - lets see; two for you and the rest for me along with references to this mindless, cruel, and uncaring God permeating every aspect of our nations being, its judicial system, its money, and nearly everything else established by the founding fathers, and that includes Jefferson and Paine.

And please don't tell me I don't have the right to question your god's actions. If it bothers you, then ignore me.

You’re getting right and ability mixed up; we all have the ability to claim rights as they are crafted by men but we are commanded by God to esteem Him and His commandments as sacred. The rights I spoke of are those afforded by our Heavenly Father. I believe that the right to judge and bad-mouth His commandments as a thing of naught is not yours and that if you take such then it will be to your condemnation.

 

[Evandr]

please...by all means show me what you mean.

All I have to do is go back through your posted responses to people and have you read them again but, alas, that would accomplish nothing because you would not (or will not) see the obvious so your request cannot be granted.

 

[waitasec]

All I have to do is go back through your posted responses to people and have you read them again but, alas, that would accomplish nothing because you would not (or will not) see the obvious so your request cannot be granted.

just show me one example where i do what you claim...i'm really interested.

 

[ninerbuff]

There is a difference between taking something and letting something play out.

christians claim god knows the outcomes. Why even bother.

Wrong again. Pain and suffering will diminish over time but not the memory of that which was good nor the soft pangs of loss, but these are good things. If you have not the ability to overcome trial and let our Heavenly Father heal the wounds then your plight is a sad one indeed.

If you ever have been to a MADD meeting, most of the supporters are ones who have lost friends or family to drunk drivers. I've heard story after story (even from christians) who still haven't gotten over the loss. Their direction is now of that in making sure that drunk drivers and the laws they break are prosecuted much more harshly. And personally my life is gravy. I've overcome adversity several times on my own without a god's help.

We don't have to agree on anything (and yes, I do fear the repercussions of foolishness); that is the beauty of free agency; I have my opinion and you have yours. Another area where we differ greatly is that I have my experiences and you have yours. My experiences tell me that you are off track and headed for an eternal dead end. I understand that you can say the same of me but that leaves one of us to be wrong.

Difference is I don't worry about a god and live a fearful manner. Could you imagine where medicine would be if the doctors were scared of stepping on god's toes by curing people that supposedly back in the day was only because of god's mercy? Or that christian couples praying hard for a baby with no result, turn to IVF to trump prayer?

Well, all I have to say is it’s a good thing for all mankind that such decisions are not yours to make. I believe that the saddest part is is that in some distant part of God's eternal plan for His children you could become one responsible for making such decisions; that is, according to my understanding of course, if you would only prove yourself worthy to gain such knowledge and wisdom while in mortality.

You don't need to be worthy to obtain knowledge. You get it by being exposed to the subjects you want to learn. I've denied the existence of a god for years now and that hasn't reduced my capacity to learn.

OK then, let's add it up - lets see; two for you and the rest for me along with references to this mindless, cruel, and uncaring God permeating every aspect of our nations being, its judicial system, its money, and nearly everything else established by the founding fathers, and that includes Jefferson and Paine.

Hate to tell you this, but if you think any politician is on the side of christianity, it's only for votes. That way they get more power and money.

You’re getting right and ability mixed up; we all have the ability to claim rights as they are crafted by men but we are commanded by God to esteem Him and His commandments as sacred. The rights I spoke of are those afforded by our Heavenly Father. I believe that the right to judge and bad-mouth His commandments as a thing of naught is not yours and that if you take such then it will be to your condemnation.

Your god is not my god. I can give what ever opinion I want about it. And I fear no reprecussion since there is no god to begin with as far as I'm concerned. So yes I do have a right to voice it whether you feel it's fine or not. Sorry.

 

[waitasec]

what makes you think you are so much different to them? They lived a long time ago yes, but that doesnt mean they were stupid.

did i say they were stupid or ignorant?
there is a BIG difference.

you've learnt all about our world through books written by other people...how much have you yourself discovered about the world that you've been able to share with mankind?
Have you named constallations or mapped the stars? Did you discover which crops grew best in which seasons in the types of soil they grow best in and how much to water them and when to prune them? Did you invent the art of metalwork? invent the wheel, Do you know better how to build a pyramid then the egyptions did? I dare you to compare ancient architecture with modern architecture...you will not see the hand of a primitive people.

i don't see what this has anything to do with anything...have you done these things, if yes good for you.
but you cannot deny that we know more about the world than the ancients...

the ancients were more advanced then you give them credit for.

hence the superstitions they believed...i'm not taking any credit away from them they were more limited in their understanding of the world and the cosmos around them then we are, do you agree or are we still in the dark ages?

the bible and the jews were not superstitious pagans.

i never called them pagans...but they were
superstitious (burnt offerings) chauvinistic (gen 3:16 Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you) and prejudice (genocide, human trafficking and slavery)

they did not fear thunder or lightening, they did understand how diseases spread and it is written up in their sanitary laws...

tell me pegg when you're menstruating do you disappear for 2 weeks

the need to wash hands, to bury feces, to not touch dead bodies, to use fire as a way to kill infection by burning clothing & bedding of an infected person... the english suffered terribly during the black plague because they had no idea about isolating sick people from healthy people...yet there it was in their own bibles... a 3,000 year old ancient book from a 'primitive', 'ignorant' & 'superstitious' people.

wow...these things are elementary

why is it so impossible to believe that we might have his qualities?

it's more probable that he has our qualities

perhaps you dont want to know. If you do want to know however, i'll be more then happy to provide you some scriptures whereby you can have examples of how God displays his qualities. Then you can judge him based on real life examples rather then on pure opinion and speculation.

been there and done that...
thank you though

seek with an open mind and without pre-conceived ideas. God is happy to tell us how it is... just because we may not like the answer does not mean that it isnt true.

i don't have pre conceived ideas about god...everything i am arguing against comes from pre conceived notions from the bible

 

[waitasec]

All I have to do is go back through your posted responses to people and have you read them again but, alas, that would accomplish nothing because you would not (or will not) see the obvious so your request cannot be granted.

that's what i thought...
all bark but no bite :slap:

 

[Kathryn]

When people indignantly challenge the validity of God's actions, what they are really saying is "Well, I wouldn't have done it that way."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Simple, we are all part of the trial of mortal probation, God is not. He is the orchestrator of this whole show. He has both the wisdom and the right to decide if He is going to intervene in something and if He does you can be sure He will not interfere with anyone’s free agency and that such intervention will be calculated for the best outcome in the long run. Every decision He makes is the right one in every degree, from the smallest to the greatest. Remember, in the midst of all the screwing up we do along with all the natural calamities that befall mankind, His matchless power and mercy are over all mankind to give those affected by such trials the strength and comfort to bear them with dignity and honor, the neighbor has none of those things. Remember this also, God knows that there will be hard trials and so we are all given the commandment to, within the scope of our ability, to bear on another's burden and to comfort those in need.

[...]

Of course we all have the responsibility to stop the pain and suffering (most, including myself and hopefully the neighbor you speak of, also has the extreme desire to do so) of those around us if we can, it is even a commandment from God that we seek to do it, but it is also a reality that such things will happen and to blame god as being uncaring or to turn away from Him in times of trials is to strip oneself of the greatest power there is to help successfully navigate the waters of mortality from the time birth brings us into this world until the veil opens up to reclaim us back to whence we came, whenever, however, or however long that may be.

Why "of course"? I don't think this logically follows at all from the first part of what you said.

If all the suffering in the world really is part of God's holy plan and is in furtherance of some divine, perfect purpose, then why on Earth would we decide to interfere with it? If God's ways are perfect, why would a person have the sheer hubris to try and change anything? Do you think you can improve on perfection?

You really should stop trying to equate the knowledge, wisdom, power and authority of He who created you with the knowledge and commandments He gives you. To say that God has a responsibility just because you do is foolishness.

I think that entirely depends on what one believes about the source of morality. If morality is objective (which is something I've heard many, many theists claim), then by definition it applies to everyone and everything, including God.

Do you believe in objective morality? Where do you think that morality comes from?

The bottom line is this; your trial is for you, not God, He is the creator, lawgiver, judge and the source of all blessings we receive and/or will ever receive. The bag of arguments and excuses for failure to turn to Him and keep His commandments that you are so carefully putting together will amount to nothing more than a wisp of hot air when you stand before God to be sized up and judged.

1"(A)Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and (B)by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Some of the greatest men this world has even known, George Washington and the founding fathers just to name a few saw the wisdom in seeking God during this country’s bloody birth and so should we all in our times of suffering both great and small. Just because what you perceive as a painful curse God sees as a great tempering trial, does not give anyone, including you, the justification, right or wisdom to judge God.

IMO, when a person's sense of right and wrong is so twisted that he would call the brutal death of an innocent mother and her children as a good act, he has lost the right to call himself a moral person.

When people indignantly challenge the validity of God's actions, what they are really saying is "Well, I wouldn't have done it that way."

When "that way" is pointlessly, violently killing three innocent people, you're damn right I wouldn't have done it that way.

 

[Commoner]

When people indignantly challenge the validity of God's actions, what they are really saying is "Well, I wouldn't have done it that way."

Actually - I wouldn't have done it that way and the way it was done was wrong.

 

[Willamena]

If all the suffering in the world really is part of God's holy plan and is in furtherance of some divine, perfect purpose, then why on Earth would we decide to interfere with it? If God's ways are perfect, why would a person have the sheer hubris to try and change anything? Do you think you can improve on perfection?

The answer to that would seem obvious. If everything we do is part of God's plan, then the response to suffering is as appropriate as the suffering.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The answer to that would seem obvious. If everything we do is part of God's plan, then the response to suffering is as appropriate as the suffering.

So no free will then?

 

[Willamena]

So no free will then?

That's correct: the debate about free will is all about "God's plan."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's correct: the debate about free will is all about "God's plan."

It seems to me that this creates major problems for some of the systems proposed here, especially Evandr's suggestion that suffering has been put in place by God as a trial or test for humanity. IMO, this suggests that free will is a necessary part of the equation.

 

[Willamena]

It seems to me that this creates major problems for some of the systems proposed here, especially Evandr's suggestion that suffering has been put in place by God as a trial or test for humanity. IMO, this suggests that free will is a necessary part of the equation.

I agree. I started a new thread to discuss providence vs. free will.

 

[ninerbuff]

When people indignantly challenge the validity of God's actions, what they are really saying is "Well, I wouldn't have done it that way."

Or that it really doesn't make logical sense.

 

[waitasec]

When people indignantly challenge the validity of God's actions, what they are really saying is "Well, I wouldn't have done it that way."

actually, people are indignant about the man made ideals of the god in the bible...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

actually, people are indignant about the man made ideals of the god in the bible...

Why would someone be indignant about Leviticus 19 vs18,32-36 ?

 

[ninerbuff]

Why would someone be indignant about Leviticus 19 vs18,32-36 ?

They could be a vampire?

 

[waitasec]

Why would someone be indignant about Leviticus 19 vs18,32-36 ?

but isn't that cherry picking?