Explain this logically christians....

[ninerbuff]

When a christian says that god doesn't intervene, then why even pray for a sick, injured, kidnapped, etc. person? To me that's delusional. If what's happening to that person is supposed to happen, then praying on it ain't going to change anything.
Lol, when something good happens, christians say "praise god", but when it goes bad you don't hear anything but "they've gone on to a better place". Why not "praise god that kid got murdered so that he could be with god?"

 

[WanderingSoul]

A close friend informed me today that his cousin lost his wife and 2 kids to a drunk driver a few days ago.
Now the cousin is being asked to "lean on god" and "faith" to make it through it.
So explain that if it was god's "plan" to take his family away, then why lean on god for support? How does that logically make sense?

Hello:

It would seem only natural for those who believe in God and the afterlife to offer as a condolence the idea that God in all "His" infinite wisdom has a "plan" for all of us--a greater purpose--that exceeds that which we know here on earth. Life on earth is not the end, but only a beginning to everlasting communion with the source of our being, God, the great giver of life and love. The pain and sorrow, then, is dealt with in the knowledge that those we have lost to eartly death are in a place of love and happiness, as it must be for those who love God in return.

Since it cannot be logically proven that this is so, it must be accepted in faith. Having faith in God is not ignorance to those who accept God as truth, but a humble trust in the wisdom and "intelligence" of a being infinitely wiser than ourselves.

That's the best I can do.

I am a theist, but not a Christian.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've yet to see anyone successfully argue that the world should be any other way than it is.

How is this relevant?

 

[Copernicus]

I've yet to see anyone successfully argue that the world should be any other way than it is.

Try reading Voltaire's Candide, Dr. Pangloss.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

When a christian says that god doesn't intervene, then why even pray for a sick, injured, kidnapped, etc. person? To me that's delusional. If what's happening to that person is supposed to happen, then praying on it ain't going to change anything.
Lol, when something good happens, christians say "praise god", but when it goes bad you don't hear anything but "they've gone on to a better place". Why not "praise god that kid got murdered so that he could be with god?"

Possible people say 'gone to a better place' to feel better.

We can pray that a person be directed to the best medical help available.
We can pray that, if nothing else, the troubled person be helped to endure.

Now is the time for spiritual healing. Jesus 1000-year reign is for physical healing or curing. -Rev 22v2.

In Scripture we can see why God is not responsible for tragic occurrences:

1] 1st John 5v19; 2nd Cor 4v4; Rev 12v12 world lies in Satan's system
2] Ecc 8v9 Not God, but man has dominated man to his injury.
3] Ecc 9v11 Time or chance or unforeseen occurrences befall all of us

Since Satan is the god of this world of badness, then it would seem that the bad conditions we have now would be just like Satan's cruel personality.

The word father means life giver. God as Creator and Heavenly Father [life giver] gives us the gift of life [including the prospect of everlasting life]
Satan on the other hand does not. -Hebrews 2v14 B.

 

[Skwim]

The word father means life giver.

According to whom?

Consult any etymology reference and you'll find its derivation is similar to this:

"father (n.)
O.E. fæder "father, male ancestor," from P.Gmc. *fader (cf. O.S. fadar, O.Fris. feder, Du. vader, O.N. faðir, O.H.G. fater, Ger. vater), from PIE *pəter (cf. Skt. pitar-, Gk. pater, L. pater, O.Pers. pita, O.Ir. athir "father"), presumably from baby-speak sound like pa. The classic example of Grimm's Law, where PIE "p-" becomes Germanic "f-." Spelling with -th- (15c.) reflects widespread phonetic shift in M.E. that turned -der to -ther in many words; spelling caught up to pronunciation in 1500s."
source
​

And, of course, used as a noun denoting humans it simply means: male parent.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....and without the male parent would there be life given?

 

[Skwim]

....and without the male parent would there be life given?

With some animal forms, yes.

However, what a person may do does not automatically imbue a reference to that person with that trait. So, again I ask, according to whom does the word "father" mean "life giver"?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

With some animal forms, yes.
However, what a person may do does not automatically imbue a reference to that person with that trait. So, again I ask, according to whom does the word "father" mean "life giver"?

According to 'whom' ? The whom is not talking about some animal forms.
the 'whom' is people or persons.

To all children the word father [their father] means life giver to the child.

 

[Pegg]

what? the nazi's focused on the differences not unifying the entire world, they wanted to take over.
pol pot wasn't trying to unify the world...if you believe this story of the tower of babel, isn't this exactly what god intended, chaos and misunderstandings?
don't you think it would be wonderful to have humanity work together and set aside our differences based on preconceived notions and biases? isn't that the goal for humanity?

humanity doesnt have any other goal then to dominate their fellow man. If you think that the babel account was anything but a man who wanted total control, then you'd be wrong. Take a look at the past 6,000 years of mans history and it should become apparent to you that what you think can happen is nothing but a fools dream.

The only way mankind will ever truly be unified is when God unifies them himself.

 

[waitasec]

humanity doesnt have any other goal then to dominate their fellow man.

well if you take this story literally, we have the god of the bible to thank for that...who was the one that caused division among the united?

If you think that the babel account was anything but a man who wanted total control, then you'd be wrong.
Take a look at the past 6,000 years of mans history and it should become apparent to you that what you think can happen is nothing but a fools dream

well again, we owe this to the god of the bible...if taken literally

The only way mankind will ever truly be unified is when God unifies them himself.

sure after he supposedly separated them

it's funny how god is credited for creating the antidote but doesn't get credit for creating the problem in the first place

 

[openyourmind]

humanity doesnt have any other goal then to dominate their fellow man. If you think that the babel account was anything but a man who wanted total control, then you'd be wrong. Take a look at the past 6,000 years of mans history and it should become apparent to you that what you think can happen is nothing but a fools dream.

The only way mankind will ever truly be unified is when God unifies them himself.

I'm haveing a bit of trouble understanding what your trying to say here. I believe in God to make that clear. But, are you trying to tell us that every man wants to control every other man and that without god we are all doomed? If that is the case then are all our attempts at unification and peace futile? So why do anything until the day of judgement?

 

[waitasec]

I'm haveing a bit of trouble understanding what your trying to say here. I believe in God to make that clear. But, are you trying to tell us that every man wants to control every other man and that without god we are all doomed? If that is the case then are all our attempts at unification and peace futile? So why do anything until the day of judgement?

good question

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

humanity doesnt have any other goal then to dominate their fellow man.

Speak for yourself.

If you think that the babel account was anything but a man who wanted total control, then you'd be wrong. Take a look at the past 6,000 years of mans history and it should become apparent to you that what you think can happen is nothing but a fools dream.

The only way mankind will ever truly be unified is when God unifies them himself.

That's a very strange take on the Babel story, IMO. The story describes humanity being united in a common purpose until God, in an effort to thwart humanity's potential, deliberately shatters that unity.

I can appreciate the story as a morality tale that instructs the reader to focus on God rather than humanity (a moral I have real problems with, but I can see why people would try to express it). I can appreciate it as a "just-so" story to explain where language came from. However, I can't understand your take on it.

 

[Pegg]

well if you take this story literally, we have the god of the bible to thank for that...who was the one that caused division among the united?

if we were all united under one person to rule us, then there is greater risk of abuse and far more people to suffer

If Pol Pot was the worlds one leader when he decided to kill all the educated people, there would have been many more deaths then the millions he killed. I think it was wise of God to ensure that people were dispersed in separate groups...it prevented one person dominating over all.

it's funny how god is credited for creating the antidote but doesn't get credit for creating the problem in the first place

you want to blame God because he gave us free will. Ok, if you dont like free will then i hope you never get into a position of power over others lol

Just because God gave us free will, doesnt mean we have the right to abuse the privilege. We only have ourselves to blame for all our woes.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If that is the case then are all our attempts at unification and peace futile? So why do anything until the day of judgement?

Why do anything is because Jesus gave us something to do.
Jesus wants his followers to proclaim the good news of God's kingdom government [Dan 2v44] to 'all' nations. Not just as a conversion but as a warning because not all prove to be sheep-like ones [Matt 25vs31,32] before the end comes of all badness on earth.

Jesus comes or acts not as preacher and teacher but as King.
Acting crowned king of God's kingdom to vindicate God's sovereignty over earth as the best way of governing in everlasting peace on earth toward men of goodwill. Jesus does this by eliminating God's enemies, and preserving alive his saved ones, those doing the spiritual work of Matthew 24v14.

 

[waitasec]

if we were all united under one person to rule us, then there is greater risk of abuse and far more people to suffer

If Pol Pot was the worlds one leader when he decided to kill all the educated people, there would have been many more deaths then the millions he killed. I think it was wise of God to ensure that people were dispersed in separate groups...it prevented one person dominating over all.




you want to blame God because he gave us free will. Ok, if you dont like free will then i hope you never get into a position of power over others lol

Just because God gave us free will, doesnt mean we have the right to abuse the privilege. We only have ourselves to blame for all our woes.

this is not what i am talking about...clearly you don't want to address the argument so you revert to ad hominems.
so how does the principal of leadership have anything to do with unity?
the ideal of unity is an ideal the god of the bible is against...clearly.

genesis 11:6
If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

god doesn't say anything he plans, he says, anything THEY plan.

why would an all powerful god say that? why would he be afraid of mans unity?
you and i both know there was nothing to find in the heavens?
this is an obvious tell-tale of mans creation of god.

 

[Evandr]

So how would a christian react if:

If you had a fire happen in your home, and your children and spouse were in the house asleep, and your close friend KNEW it was happening, but neglected calling the fire department thereby causing the death of your family............yet you could actually "lean" on this person for comfort knowing full well had that person called the fire department, chances are high that your family would have lived? In relationship to a god

why would this be any different?

Simple, we are all part of the trial of mortal probation, God is not. He is the orchestrator of this whole show. He has both the wisdom and the right to decide if He is going to intervene in something and if He does you can be sure He will not interfere with anyone’s free agency and that such intervention will be calculated for the best outcome in the long run. Every decision He makes is the right one in every degree, from the smallest to the greatest. Remember, in the midst of all the screwing up we do along with all the natural calamities that befall mankind, His matchless power and mercy are over all mankind to give those affected by such trials the strength and comfort to bear them with dignity and honor, the neighbor has none of those things. Remember this also, God knows that there will be hard trials and so we are all given the commandment to, within the scope of our ability, to bear on another's burden and to comfort those in need.

Of course we all have the responsibility to stop the pain and suffering (most, including myself and hopefully the neighbor you speak of, also has the extreme desire to do so) of those around us if we can, it is even a commandment from God that we seek to do it, but it is also a reality that such things will happen and to blame god as being uncaring or to turn away from Him in times of trials is to strip oneself of the greatest power there is to help successfully navigate the waters of mortality from the time birth brings us into this world until the veil opens up to reclaim us back to whence we came, whenever, however, or however long that may be.

You really should stop trying to equate the knowledge, wisdom, power and authority of He who created you with the knowledge and commandments He gives you. To say that God has a responsibility just because you do is foolishness.

The bottom line is this; your trial is for you, not God, He is the creator, lawgiver, judge and the source of all blessings we receive and/or will ever receive. The bag of arguments and excuses for failure to turn to Him and keep His commandments that you are so carefully putting together will amount to nothing more than a wisp of hot air when you stand before God to be sized up and judged.

Some of the greatest men this world has even known, George Washington and the founding fathers just to name a few saw the wisdom in seeking God during this country’s bloody birth and so should we all in our times of suffering both great and small. Just because what you perceive as a painful curse God sees as a great tempering trial, does not give anyone, including you, the justification, right or wisdom to judge God.

 

[ninerbuff]

Simple, we are all part of the trial of mortal probation, God is not. He is the orchestrator of this whole show. He has both the wisdom and the right to decide if He is going to intervene in something and if He does you can be sure He will not interfere with anyone’s free agency and that such intervention will be calculated for the best outcome in the long run. Every decision He makes is the right one in every degree, from the smallest to the greatest. Remember, in the midst of all the screwing up we do along with all the natural calamities that befall mankind, His matchless power and mercy are over all mankind to give those affected by such trials the strength and comfort to bear them with dignity and honor, the neighbor has none of those things. Remember this also, God knows that there will be hard trials and so we are all given the commandment to, within the scope of our ability, to bear on another's burden and to comfort those in need.

Don't sound that simple. The "decision" to take the family to test a man's faith? And what if that man goes into depression and totally loses everything and becomes homeless yet doesn't turn to god? But wait he already knows this so he "wastes" 3 perfectly good lives for entertainment?

Of course we all have the responsibility to stop the pain and suffering (most, including myself and hopefully the neighbor you speak of, also has the extreme desire to do so) of those around us if we can, it is even a commandment from God that we seek to do it, but it is also a reality that such things will happen and to blame god as being uncaring or to turn away from Him in times of trials is to strip oneself of the greatest power there is to help successfully navigate the waters of mortality from the time birth brings us into this world until the veil opens up to reclaim us back to whence we came, whenever, however, or however long that may be.

Lol, pain and suffering NEVER cease when one loses a loved one to a tragedy. Dying of old age or illness in one thing, but because of another callous act........different feelings there.

You really should stop trying to equate the knowledge, wisdom, power and authority of He who created you with the knowledge and commandments He gives you. To say that God has a responsibility just because you do is foolishness.

According to your opinion. Just because you don't want to question it because you fear reprecussion, doesn't mean people like myself who use common knowledge to logically try to understand why this "god" is so callous and narcissistic, have to agree.

The bottom line is this; your trial is for you, not God, He is the creator, lawgiver, judge and the source of all blessings we receive and/or will ever receive. The bag of arguments and excuses for failure to turn to Him and keep His commandments that you are so carefully putting together will amount to nothing more than a wisp of hot air when you stand before God to be sized up and judged.

Lol, he's done a crappy job of the commandments he gives and needs an updated version.

Some of the greatest men this world has even known, George Washington and the founding fathers just to name a few saw the wisdom in seeking God during this country’s bloody birth and so should we all in our times of suffering both great and small. Just because what you perceive as a painful curse God sees as a great tempering trial, does not give anyone, including you, the justification, right or wisdom to judge God.

Thomas Jefferson was non religious as well as Thomas Paine. And please don't tell me I don't have the right to question your god's actions. If it bothers you, then ignore me.

 

[Evandr]

this is not what i am talking about...clearly you don't want to address the argument so you revert to ad hominems.
so how does the principal of leadership have anything to do with unity?
the ideal of unity is an ideal the god of the bible is against...clearly.

genesis 11:6
If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

god doesn't say anything he plans, he says, anything THEY plan.

why would an all powerful god say that? why would he be afraid of mans unity?
you and i both know there was nothing to find in the heavens?
this is an obvious tell-tale of mans creation of god.

My friend, the way you conduct a conversation reminds me of the way Pee-Wee Herman conducted the investigation when His bike was stolen. In every instance all He did was leave people wishing they never had to try to make sense out of what he was saying. The way you use buckets of steam and reels of flight line in a mostly useless response to some one else’s argument is extraordinary in its mind numbing ability. Homonyms? Without homonyms, paragraph twisting, putting words in people’s mouthes, not to mention grand assumptions at nearly every turn, you would have nothing to say.